Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on May 15, 2011 at 4:31am

The post below is from you, about McNab.  Below that is me and my time-bomb fallacy, then you.  Could you offer a permalink to the post you mean?  Or perhaps just paste the link in your next response?

Permalink Reply by Arcus on May 15, 2011 at 12:52pm

Permalink for what I like to call Blue Waffle syndrome ;)

Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on May 15, 2011 at 7:30pm

So that would indicate zero evidence then?

Permalink Reply by Arcus on May 15, 2011 at 8:48pm

Blue waffle syndrome is well documented. ;)

As for the effectiveness of torture, I asked the local US consulate and they declined to comment. That must surely mean it's completely inefficient and the US never engaging in such.

Permalink Reply by Arcus on May 15, 2011 at 3:08am

Let's see what "Andy McNab" thinks about the efficiency of torture:

"I served in Northern Ireland and I know the security services used to do outrageous things at Castlereagh detention centre.

We didn't care about that because the security services were getting real-time information that prevented bombings, both in the province and on the mainland."

Where's your ticking time bomb "fallacy" now?

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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on May 15, 2011 at 3:18am

My ticking time bomb fallacy is right here:

http://www.thinkatheist.com/profiles/blogs/ticking-time-bomb-fallacy

 

So now you've at least given something of merit, but let's take a closer look.

 

McNab isn't citing his own experience with torture there - he's making a claim that bombings were prevented; now I have to ask, where is the evidence for that claim?  Where is the documentation of these 'terrorists' being arrested, bomb making materials in hand, map to a target, all led to by evidence gained through torture?

 

The evidence I have provided clearly indicates the technique did NOT work with KSM.  Have you any documentation of actionable intelligence gained from a terrorist?

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Arcus on May 15, 2011 at 3:32am

Not everything is (publicly) documented, especially illegal acts.

As for your fallacy, firstly the audacity of believing you have invented one astounds me. Secondly, it holds no merit.

"Have you any documentation of actionable intelligence gained from a terrorist?"

Did you read McNab's testimony? That's as close as you will ever get to confirmation.

"Everyone breaks eventually." Wonder why that is a saying..

Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on May 15, 2011 at 3:48am

Everyone breaks eventually - except for KSM, apparently.  Oh sure, he gave up some information, but it didn't stop his bomb plots from moving forward.  He also confessed to a plot to hit L.A., which it seems was cancelled years earlier, whoops.  He confessed from plotting to kill everyone from Bill Clinton to the Pope - but he kept his bomb plot well guarded.

 

I'm sorry that the evidence for your case is locked away in a secret underground bunker with Jimmy Hoffa, Osama Bin Laden, and Sonny Bono - but I'm really going to need to see something compelling to think that torture has any potential to result in actionable intelligence.  After that, I'll need some pretty damn good assurances that innocents like Maher Arar aren't going to be tortured as well.  Finally, I'll need to know how the backlash from terrorists will be prevented, otherwise it just seems like the sort of thing that will result in more turmoil than it will quell.

Permalink Reply by Akshay Bist on May 14, 2011 at 9:24pm

I think most people here are talking about physical torture.

I'd be interested in hearing some views on psychological torture.

PS - I think techniques like sleep deprivation should be classified as physical torture.

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Permalink Reply by Arcus on May 15, 2011 at 2:25am

It's inhumane and perpetrators like the one below should be shot on the spot. ;)

 

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Permalink Reply by Akshay Bist on May 15, 2011 at 3:20am

Oh she's notorious. The interwebs full of stories about her. But you should get the leader of this movement first. I hear its some Justin Beaver guy. People say his worse than OBL

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Permalink Reply by Arcus on May 15, 2011 at 3:24am

Torture would be inefective though. There's no intelligence to be found. ;)

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