Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on May 10, 2011 at 7:20pm

So you agree that he had "something" to do with it then?  Perhaps you would care to finally declare what that "something" might be?  Because your assertion that "The whole case against him is just a pack of cards" is still very unclear to me - aside from the erroneous idiom.  You have argued endlessly that there is zero evidence of any of his criminal activity, ignored that he was a fugitive, and taken great exception to my original assertion that he wasn't the mastermind behind 9/11.  So I really think it's completely fair to invite someone with as much passion and zeal as your own into the debate.  Where then, is the 'dishonesty'?

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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on May 10, 2011 at 8:04pm

He is a member of al-Qaeda or the leader of al-Qaeda?

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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on May 10, 2011 at 8:19pm

Then post your response over there, you've already taken this thread off topic.

Permalink Reply by Stanley Brooks on May 10, 2011 at 4:46pm

Well I said I was through with this, but one last reply.  In short, yes, it is more immoral to torture in any circumstance.  And it does not produce reliable intel. This has been verified by the professionals in interrogation.  All you have is an angry person extracting revenge, and masking their sadism in some fantasy of saving lives.

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Permalink Reply by Sassan K. on May 11, 2011 at 11:02am

You can keep claiming it "doesn't produce intelligence" but this is just not so. And no one is advocating it as the #1 choice or for it to even have widespread use; but in contrary, as a last resort against the most extreme terrorists determined on a case-by-case basis by the commander-in-chief, the President of the United States. In fact, in Islam you have to resist to a certain point where you can then confess and still go to "heaven" as they think.

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Permalink Reply by J. Ratzinger on May 14, 2011 at 1:12pm

Stanley Brooks

I think it somewhat naive to think that physical or psychological torture or threats against your family would not be effective in extracting some piece of information from any given person including yourself, so it is somewhat naive for you or some random interrogator to say that it does not or cannot work.

 

If I ask you your bank account number for instance you will not give it to me, but if I tell you that my friends are going to come into the room and chain you to the floor and let Rottweilers who have not been fed for a full week gulp peanut butter off your naked genitals you might be more inclined to reconsider at some point before the raging dogs are let off the leash. Perhaps though you have a way with animals and will convince them through your tears and whimpering to merely lick & not rip and tear your junk away. Maybe you would be brave and need to be cut or burned or told that some compatriots who need your pass-code are on their way to pick up your 6 year old daughter at school to bring her to your torture chamber for a family visit. You will of course give a false code to stop that from happening, but when the torturer says that if the code or information is false, then the torture will get mercilessly worse then you might be more forthcoming with the real info.

 

I saw something like that in a documentary or a movie once, and I think that it is unrealistic of you and some more humane interrogators to say that no matter what inhumane torture techniques one were to employ it would not be effective in extracting truthful intel. To say that torture does not or cannot work is just silly nonsense.

 

I do not advocate Torture, but please at least argue against it on moral or other grounds but to say it is never effective and cannot be effective is bunk.

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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on May 14, 2011 at 9:16pm

If you have any evidence to suggest that torture results in actionable intelligence then please post an example where it worked as such - life isn't an episode of 24.

 

In the real world, torture doesn't produce actionable intelligence.

http://www.thinkatheist.com/profiles/blogs/ticking-time-bomb-fallacy

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Permalink Reply by Arcus on May 15, 2011 at 1:57am

"In the real world, torture doesn't produce actionable intelligence."

Irony: Yes, one must content that the Third Reich never found a Jew due to information gained through torture. Nor did Pinochet employ torture with great "success".

Torture may be a bad thing, but that doesn't immediately make it ineffective in gathering intelligence.  

In the real world, torture produce actionable intelligence.

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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on May 15, 2011 at 2:07am

Once again, opinion in place of fact.  Do you have any evidence for your claim?  As near as I can recall, the Nazis had a very extensive monetary reward system in place for information leading them to Jews in hiding - I might have even read about that in the Diary of Anne Frank.

 

Furthermore, torturing people for rather common place information doesn't begin to compare to torturing someone who is not only prepared but in fact eager to die for their cause.  You have failed to address the evidence provided that clearly indicates torture does not work.

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Permalink Reply by Arcus on May 15, 2011 at 2:51am

I see your reading of Anne Frank's diary and raise you actually having stood in the torture chambers of Auswitch hearing how Jews were tortured until they revealed where the rest of their families were. I've also been to the torture chambers of Treblinka, where an ex-inmate told us the story of how they were routinely tortured to reveal escape plans.

If you doubt Gestapo's "Verscharfe Vernehmungen" (enhanced interrogation) was particularly successful, then how on Earth were the Gestapo so successful? I don't believe they got all their information through talking or bribery..

Remember, in history the highest form of evidence are the stories of those who lived through it. How many primary sources have you interviewed?

Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on May 15, 2011 at 2:53am

I've given you a primary source, DoD documents - you've returned a movie fan site.  Doesn't that embarrass you?

Permalink Reply by Reggie on May 15, 2011 at 8:30pm

Movies and video games....

 

...sigh.

 

 

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