What if "enhanced interrogation techniques" helped capture Bin Laden??
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Permalink Reply by Lindsey on -
You're all assuming that the person being tortured actually has information to give. If a connection to terrorism can be proven, the perhaps some rare exceptions can be made, but if everything is circumstantial at best, then how do you justify risking innocent people being tortured for information they don't have? If there are innocent people on the government's no-fly list, you can bet there would probably be innocent people on their torture list as well. Or is it okay to torture innocents in the name of the greater good?
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Permalink Reply by Arcus on -
It depends mostly on the level of threat percieved. A hidden nuclear bomb in New York is different than a hidden pop gun on the Russian tundra.
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Permalink Reply by Lindsey on
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Yes, but if the person you're torturing for information doesn't actually have any information to give, then you're both wasting time and committing a morally reprehensible act.
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Permalink Reply by Sassan K. on -
Like I said, it can't be systematic but must be made on an individual case-by-case basis by the commander in chief - the President - and I think those who would rather have 10,000 people die in the name of "individual rights" is a naive idealist; the security and safety of innocent people must be the most important consideration. I.E. it said that intelligence from Khalid-Sheikh Mohammad may have led to actionable tips to identify the courier who led to Bin Laden..
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Permalink Reply by Jim Minion on -
"the security and safety of innocent people must be the most important consideration. I.E. it said that intelligence from Khalid-Sheikh Mohammad may have led to actionable tips to identify the courier who led to Bin Laden.."
So we can justify torture of some one who maybe innocent because the security and safety of the innocent must be the most important consideration.
KSM is waterboarded 183 times in one month alone, we executed Japanese for war crimes for the same actions.
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Permalink Reply by Arcus on
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Whn I was tortured:
When I was in the military I had a quartermaster I did not get along with from the get go. Presumably it was my hatred of the position I found myself in which got transferred to the person who had the most immediate power of authority over me. After a few weeks he purchased a whip, in good old British Army Officer tradition, which then became the source of my utmost contemption. He would smack it behind you so you jumped and he laughed, smack it in our tents as we were getting what precious little rest we could, smack our pants if we were lagging behind under 10kg uniforms while carrying 12kg machinegun with a strap so narrow it has left a permanent indentation on my left shoulder and a 50kg backpack, or just general assholeness.
One morning, while a room was being inspected, he left his little whip outside and I stole it and hid it. As you may imagine, he was not amused. At inspection, the whole troop was been forced to hold out our rifles arms stretched, push ups, sit ups, and most PE you can imagine for 2 hours until we had to jog 6km to the shooting range (collective punishment FTW!. Again, you may imagine the dismay of my fellow soldiers and I quickly got ratted out.
But I never told him where I had hidden it.
That was, of course, until the day we took a little trip to the CS chamber (CS is teargas, nasty stuff that can actually kill you). My last name is far out in the alphabet, and the military of course starts with A. I therefore had the pleasure of seeing around 40 guys come out with snot and tears, telling horror stories. Then came my turn. I was let in, the door locked behind me, and a CS tablet lit up. As I removed my gas mask I instantly got panicked since I could barely breathe. I was then told to take a few pushups and say my name, the usual routine.
That was until I had done what I had came for. As I was headed to the door, the quartermaster did not move, but he did ask "Where is my whip?". At this stage I'm on the ground, barely able to move or talk, but I manage to utter the words which saved me that day "Oilingroom.. Ceiling vent".
I immediately cracked under torture and told the truth. Oh you of great opinion, have you ever actually been tested?
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Permalink Reply by Jim Minion on
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What is your point? You gave him the answer he wanted therefore what?
Been in CS chamber, been through prisoner war training to keep you from giving up the information when tortured. Now add to that a religious believe that you go straight to heaven, would they give up the information as you did?
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Permalink Reply by Arcus on
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No point. That's the point of telling a story. My points are made elsewhere in the thread. :)
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Permalink Reply by chad richard john manderscheid on -
Of course the theoretical case that one persons suffering nonlethal interrogation is justified to save a city of innocents is hard to refute. IF you could KNOW that who could stand by and let it happen? However if that is okay what about if you just suspect it. What if it was a smaller bomb? what if it was Wash. D.C. or Waco. Reportedly they waterboarded some of the 9-11 suspects more than 100-200 times. How do you KNOW when you have everything in the way of intel? Can there be a slipperier slope than this? I am sure the Russians, Germans, Japanese and Yea the Inquisition all felt justified in using waterboarding and most of them were sincere patriots and decent individuals just like our interrogators mostly were. Yes Navy Seals undergo a demo of W.B. and survive without harm. But is that the same? Who and why someone is doing something and your volunteering make ALL the difference to our experience of a action. Love and Rape can describe the same basic action yet what a difference!
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Permalink Reply by Arcus on
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Don't laws and courts regulate slippery slopes? Isn't this pretty much the raison d'etre for the legal system? If so, could a legal framework akin to that of murder in self defense be modified to apply? I mean, you can't claim self defense for certainty unless the other person has actually killed you...
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Permalink Reply by Sassan K. on
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The point is that it may have played a role in garnering intelligence from Khalid Sheikh Mohammad! The whole point is, if it was a direct contributor to Osama Bin Laden's demise, would you rather say it was morally wrong to have those enhanced interrogation techniques take place on KSM even though we got Bin Laden?? Thereso, it would be better if Bin Laden was still alive rather than having those enhanced interrogation techniques taking place in that particular case?
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