My basic view of the world is as follows...
I believe there is a God. I Believe that he created everything.
I believe atheists believe that the universe created itself.
I also believe that agnostics are to lazy and/or mentally unequipped to believe in anything no matter what. I therefore have no interest in dealing with agnostics.
Quantum mechanics allow for a universe to spontaneously create itself. It also requires that that everything can be measured. However, the universe is still referred to as infinite. Why? Because we just haven't figured out how.
If the universe was created by an explosion of some object, and everything was created by that object, then that object would be everywhere and still exist.
One of the first things people from religious families learn as children is "God is everywhere".
If god created the universe, and god is everywhere... And Something exploded and created the universe, and its everywhere... Whats the difference?
God cannot be measured, just as the universe cannot be measured... And for the same reason.
On to creationism. I am NOT a creationist. A creationist by definition does not believe in evolution. Only an idiot would not believe in something so logical and probable... almost proven even.
On the other hand, I also am not an evolutionist. An evolutionist by definition does not beleive in creation.
I believe in both. Here's why...
The story of creation says that god created the world in 7 days. That has been proven wrong.
It has also been all but proven that the stages of the creation of universe happened in the same order as they did in the story of creation.
So scrap the word "day" and change it for "stage". Guess what... Its accurate according to science.
On Adam and Eve... Been proven wrong, right? No.... It hasn't. Hasn't even been proven as improbable.
In the story of creation, God created man and woman on the sixth day. "Man and Women he created THEM" it says.
Then he rested on the seventh.
Then... Chapter two... He creates Adam and eve.
Notice, other than the gospels, which are 4 peoples separate accounts of one mans life, the bible does not repeat itself. It does not tell the same stories twice, it does not restate the laws more than once, ect. So why does it repeat itself here? The only logical conclusion is that these are two separate incidents.
Next piece of biblical evidence... After Adam and Eve were banished, they and their sons went to a place called Nod... Where Cain took a wife. Did he marry his sister? No... He married one of the woman or decedents of the first creation of man and woman. That section of the bible is not real clear on specific timelines....
Now... How exactly did it happen that before modern science, anyone was able to accurately portray the order of events in the creation of the universe? Either they were damn good at guessing, or someone told them.
God? I believe so...
Was there a completely modern and civilized society somewhere else that then moved to Earth and created this wonderful story for control? Maybe...
I really don't know... I wasn't there... I believe its god...
Why Do I believe its god?
Think about the life of an agnostic. Never really believing in anything. "Could be one thing... Could be another... and until there is proof... I'm gonna ride the fence" They live in this piss-hole of a world and believe that it is everything there is. Who the hell wants THIS to be it?
Now the Atheists. They have thought about it. They have picked a side. they believe something without tangible evidence... Just like Religious people. However, they also believe this is it... Same goes... Honestly... This is all you hope for?
Then there is religious people.... Most of us have thought about it. The ones who haven't count in my mind as much as agnostics. We have decided that there is a God of some sort or anther. We believe that there is an afterlife. We believe that if we behave, believe, and show our faith by our acts, we will be eternally rewarded with never ending happiness. If we don’t... well... The opposite.
To close... I could be wrong. There could be no after life. this crap-hole could be it. I could be wasting me time. The Atheists could be right.... And y'all know what? You can be pleased for eternity while the worms eat your face.
I could also very well be right. At which point.... Sucks to be you bru...
There is also another possibility... I could be right, but have chosen the wrong religion... At which point, guess I'll see you in hell.
The point to all of this is simple. No mans belief's are anymore open for ridicule and being called myth and fantasy until SOMEONE proves beyond ALL (not reasonable, But all) doubt that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Excepting of course people that still follow religions that science has already proved beyond all doubt that they are wrong... I cant think of any.
Can anyone actually commune the the dead so that we know?
This forum post was created in response to a request that it be brought here. I did not up and one day decide to troll the site.
Thanks for that, The single thread discussion was awful. With a proper forum post we can properly branch off in various directions without getting totally sidetracked. Look forward to an interesting discussion
You have alot of misconceptions especially about atheists and agnostics.
Im going to try and take this piece by piece. We wont even touch on the god stuff for the time being i just want you to have a clear understanding of who you are talking to on this site and some of the misconceptions you have acquired prior to coming here. Keep in mind my viewpoint may not be that of the entire base of atheism because as you will see we only share one common theme among the label. We dont believe in god.
1.On the other hand, I also am not an evolutionist. An evolutionist by definition does not beleive in creation.
This is not true. Evolution only deals with what happened after existence came to be. Not a single biologist or atheist with a brain will tell you that evolution explains the origin of life. It explains the progress of species development.
2.I believe atheists believe that the universe created itself.
Atheists hold one single viewpoint and its what defines an atheist. We do not believe there is sufficient evidence to believe in god. Alot of us take this to be all supernatural things, but the question of universe creation is debated even among ourselves at times. Now, physicists will tell you that there is a current explained theory on the expansion of the universe. but that has nothing to do with being an atheist.
3.Now the Atheists. They have thought about it. They have picked a side. they believe something without tangible evidence... Just like Religious people. However, they also believe this is it... Same goes... Honestly... This is all you hope for?
We didn't pick a side. We picked no side except that of rationality. Again your definition of atheism is lacking. We only hold one viewpoint that there is no tangible proof of god and you will constantly and consistently see us asking over and over of the theist please just give us one shred of testable, observable, tangible, reproduce able, evidence to prove your belief. We arent choosing a side you will hear many of us say we would love it to be true... just show us the proof. The only side we have chosen is that of rationality and evidence.
4. The point to all of this is simple. No mans belief's are anymore open for ridicule and being called myth and fantasy until SOMEONE proves beyond ALL (not reasonable, But all) doubt that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Excepting of course people that still follow religions that science has already proved beyond all doubt that they are wrong... I cant think of any.
See and this is the crux of the position of an atheist. All beliefs are open to equal ridicule and being called fantasy because even a christian will call Viking, Greek and Roman theology myth. We propose the only difference between religions is semantics of the believer and see them all as myths simply because there is no compelling reason to believe from any over the others. Your an atheist to all religions but Christianity .. we just take it one religion further.
Hope that helps with some of your misconceptions about us.
All the way through that, you basically reiterated my point... you have picked a side. The side that says there is no god. You may disagree on everything else, but so do believers.
The sides are broken up into believer or non-believer.
To me, believing that it is possible that there is nothing there that created everything around you, including your kids (if you have any), that it all happened not chance, is nonsensical and irrational to me.
To you, believing that something was nessary to create the three kids that I have, that it wasn't just chance that they are so awesome, that it isn't just chance the everything beautiful happened is nonsensical and irrational.
We are two sides of the same coin. Those of us that are rational are willing to admit the possibility that we are wrong. Fundamentalists believers and non believers alike can suck it.
We are not as you think sides of the same coin. Because belief requires a suspension of probability and direct dismissal of evidence that doesn't conform to a preconceived notion. Theists have a hypothesis with no observable, testable, tangible conditions to prove it yet continue to assert its absolute certainty.We call this bad science.
There are testable, tangible, observable conditions for evolution, abiogensis, quantum mechanics uncertainty principle, universe expansion. All these things point to a physical explanation for a random and chaotic existence that gave rise to life on a tiny planet that is one in trillions. But as ive already explained even all that is not reason to be atheist.
The only reason that we need is that burden of proof in any epistemic discussion rests on the person asserting a claim. Since atheism comes from a position of not asserting a claim but asserting that there has of yet been no evidence to support the claims of theism the burden rests on the theistic argument. As long as there is no evidence to support the claims there is no reason to believe them.
Basically we are playing chess waiting for theists to admit to no evidence, or abiogenesis to finish peer review, so we can call checkmate and your playing hide and go seek with your imaginary friend. Two different games.
Actually the imaginary friend was a cheap shot.
Its more like a game of two fists one contains a ball. The fist on the side of scientific inquiry is closed but we have measured it and believe that from the finger positions and the bulge of the top of the fist, there is good evidence the ball is there. The theistic fist is wide open and empty. However the theist fist says the ball is there invisible immeasurable and was there all along and that it made the other fist look like it had the ball as part of its clever plan.
I agree! ^_^
[like!] I'll have to remember that analogy for future use!
Once again - Stephen, sooo clever.
99.99% of all atheists let evidence drive their understanding of reality. There is only 1, you know. Either it has god(s) or it does not. The universe is rich with evidence for everything else we have come to know about it. Come up with extraordinary evidence to support the extraordinary claim of an all mighty and poof, the atheist will GLADLY become a believer... Oh but wait, if you have evidence then you would just call it knowledge. Anyway, there's no "side" to be on for an atheist. The data leads the way.
You make a great point that all of our existence is utterly amazing. Consciousness, Earth. your kids, my kids. It's all stunning to comprehend, isn't it? It really does seem like it could not be without a great mind behind it.
But no matter our wishful thinking, the data is telling us, there is no one there guiding events. I hope not, or your god has a lot of blood on his hands. If a real live person were to stand by and do nothing to save lives that have been brutally ended, they would be jailed for eternity. And yet, an all mighty is in fact committing the atrocities!
See how a 7$ smoke detector placed in homes tumbles the death rate of children, CHIILDREN, compared to homes without it. A 7$ gadget saves lives when god-as-is does not. This is the data, my friend. The world is this way because gods is imaginary.
Have to wonder why Christians come here. What's the draw? It does give us a forum for hacking up the religious concept into a thousand pieces, however.