My basic view of the world is as follows...
I believe there is a God. I Believe that he created everything.
I believe atheists believe that the universe created itself.
I also believe that agnostics are to lazy and/or mentally unequipped to believe in anything no matter what. I therefore have no interest in dealing with agnostics.
Quantum mechanics allow for a universe to spontaneously create itself. It also requires that that everything can be measured. However, the universe is still referred to as infinite. Why? Because we just haven't figured out how.
If the universe was created by an explosion of some object, and everything was created by that object, then that object would be everywhere and still exist.
One of the first things people from religious families learn as children is "God is everywhere".
If god created the universe, and god is everywhere... And Something exploded and created the universe, and its everywhere... Whats the difference?
God cannot be measured, just as the universe cannot be measured... And for the same reason.
On to creationism. I am NOT a creationist. A creationist by definition does not believe in evolution. Only an idiot would not believe in something so logical and probable... almost proven even.
On the other hand, I also am not an evolutionist. An evolutionist by definition does not beleive in creation.
I believe in both. Here's why...
The story of creation says that god created the world in 7 days. That has been proven wrong.
It has also been all but proven that the stages of the creation of universe happened in the same order as they did in the story of creation.
So scrap the word "day" and change it for "stage". Guess what... Its accurate according to science.
On Adam and Eve... Been proven wrong, right? No.... It hasn't. Hasn't even been proven as improbable.
In the story of creation, God created man and woman on the sixth day. "Man and Women he created THEM" it says.
Then he rested on the seventh.
Then... Chapter two... He creates Adam and eve.
Notice, other than the gospels, which are 4 peoples separate accounts of one mans life, the bible does not repeat itself. It does not tell the same stories twice, it does not restate the laws more than once, ect. So why does it repeat itself here? The only logical conclusion is that these are two separate incidents.
Next piece of biblical evidence... After Adam and Eve were banished, they and their sons went to a place called Nod... Where Cain took a wife. Did he marry his sister? No... He married one of the woman or decedents of the first creation of man and woman. That section of the bible is not real clear on specific timelines....
Now... How exactly did it happen that before modern science, anyone was able to accurately portray the order of events in the creation of the universe? Either they were damn good at guessing, or someone told them.
God? I believe so...
Was there a completely modern and civilized society somewhere else that then moved to Earth and created this wonderful story for control? Maybe...
I really don't know... I wasn't there... I believe its god...
Why Do I believe its god?
Think about the life of an agnostic. Never really believing in anything. "Could be one thing... Could be another... and until there is proof... I'm gonna ride the fence" They live in this piss-hole of a world and believe that it is everything there is. Who the hell wants THIS to be it?
Now the Atheists. They have thought about it. They have picked a side. they believe something without tangible evidence... Just like Religious people. However, they also believe this is it... Same goes... Honestly... This is all you hope for?
Then there is religious people.... Most of us have thought about it. The ones who haven't count in my mind as much as agnostics. We have decided that there is a God of some sort or anther. We believe that there is an afterlife. We believe that if we behave, believe, and show our faith by our acts, we will be eternally rewarded with never ending happiness. If we don’t... well... The opposite.
To close... I could be wrong. There could be no after life. this crap-hole could be it. I could be wasting me time. The Atheists could be right.... And y'all know what? You can be pleased for eternity while the worms eat your face.
I could also very well be right. At which point.... Sucks to be you bru...
There is also another possibility... I could be right, but have chosen the wrong religion... At which point, guess I'll see you in hell.
The point to all of this is simple. No mans belief's are anymore open for ridicule and being called myth and fantasy until SOMEONE proves beyond ALL (not reasonable, But all) doubt that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Excepting of course people that still follow religions that science has already proved beyond all doubt that they are wrong... I cant think of any.
Can anyone actually commune the the dead so that we know?
The story of creation says that god created the world in 7 days. That has been proven wrong. It has also been all but proven that the stages of the creation of universe happened in the same order as they did in the story of creation. So scrap the word "day" and change it for "stage". Guess what... Its accurate according to science.
I disagree with the assessment that even the stages are correct. The Earth was formless and God said let there be light. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. What waters? While the Earth was molten and formless, water had accumulated. The waters would have evaporated. You would need a cooled crust to have liquid waters which certainly you would have had the Sun burning brightly long before that. More importantly, he creates day and night and the sun and the moon on the fourth day. A touch out of sequence. But there is also evening on the first day and morning in the second day. I wonder how that happened without that Sun?
On Day three he creates seed bearing plants and trees on the land. But there are no animals to spread said seed? This denies observable evidence ad a huge array of plants and trees need animals to feed the plants and spread the seeds. If this were more than a day, you would have mass extinction of the plants. Plants and animals are inter-dependent and they must have developed together. If you accept evolution, you certainly know this.
the reading of Genesis that says that it's in sequence is generous at best. To illustrate the failings of the Bible Scientifically, we know the obvious ones that give Atheists consternation, Noah, Jonah, and others. but if you really want to see the lack of understanding of the world as it is, Revelations 12:4 "His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth." No reading of science, allegory or parable, anything else would help you read this as anything but the writings of someone whom didn't understand the universe. I 1/3rd of the stars, on the Earth. Is there a single star anywhere that would fit on the Earth? And not burn through it? What was the dragon's tail made out of? How long was it. A third of the stars... how many eons would that take while moving at the speed of light?
You won't find any science that is verifiable in the Bible. Repeatedly, it makes absurd claims about the natural world. Failure at an understanding of the world in hundreds of different texts discredits the entire book on the subject. Nebuchadnezzar Dream of a tree so tall that the whole world could see it is an example. How tall would a tree on the opposite side of globe need to be for me to be able to see it? So it is with due reason that I reject the Bible as contrary to what I can know and see, and that's why I am an Atheist until a God shows itself as valid.
But there is also evening on the first day and morning in the second day. I wonder how that happened without that Sun?
God has a digital clock?
Don't laugh: http://www.nextag.com/sunrise-alarm-clock/shop-html
“Now the Atheists. They have thought about it. They have picked a side. they believe something without tangible evidence... Just like Religious people. However, they also believe this is it... Same goes... Honestly... This is all you hope for?”
You’re dead wrong. Atheists believe in many things, all with tangible evidence. However the belief that you referenced here is the belief that a god does not exist. The lack of a belief in something does not require evidence to believe. The burden of proof lies on the believer… There’s no doubt you understand this reasoning.
As for hopes: One can always hope for more…It’s just that without religion, one is less likely to actually pursue a hope that doesn’t appear to be obtainable (assuming this hope you speak of is an afterlife).
I haqve studied Hebrew for many years from which our English comes from.
Genesis does not say in the original text the earth was created in 7 days.It was 'reconstructed.'
Gen.1:1 "In the origin God created the heavens [waters-and by implication all that is] and the earth."
V2."But the earth became a waste and a desolation and blackness was on the surface of the raging mass of waters["deep" in our English Bible-but we do refer to the ocean as the 'deep'].
There is a gap of time(possibly millions of years) between verses 1 and 2.
There is a perfect universe and earth in the begining or origin of verse 1,but at some point there was a massive upheavel or catacyism brought about by a huge mass of water.or the "Deep" -in Heb.a massive amount of churning, murky, raging water.'BUT,the earth BECAME a waste,'etc.
What we read in the following verses is the renewal of this ruined earth,etc.This took 7 days.Yom(Heb.) is used of day here and with a number it means a 24 hour day.Day one -day two,etc.
The earth show signs of such a water inundation or catastrophe as does the universe! There are lots of underground rivers,etc.Peter says 'the universe[cosmos] that then was [verse 1 Gen.]being overflowed with water was defaced or destroyed."
He and Genesis are both saying water was in the universe in massive amounts in the ancient past. Mars and the moon show signs that large amounts of water was on these bodies. One prof.of astronomy told a student astronomer of mine that challenged me that 'water is everywhere in the universe.' I was told by a Heb/Gk/professor and theologist in 1961 that they would' find evidence of water on the moon,mars,(they have check the net!) etc.as the Bible taught it.'The prof.did' not know when, but 'if they ever go there or some how explore they will find it.' How correct he was.He knew the Heb.and Gk Bible indicated this fact.
The universe as grand and amazing as it appears today was not the same as Gen 1:1 which was totally perfect.The basic order is there.I can tell you where Mars will be in 10 million years from now using an ephermris -that how precise much of it still is. But,there are signs that planets were hit by astroids,etc.Space rocks and the like are out there. We still view breathtaking beauty and much order. Many bodies though are in a hostile condition.
There was a second flood of water on this earth in Genesis 7 we have read or heard about.It too did much damage to this planet but traces of the perfect original beauty of Gen.1:1 are here.
We are told all will all be made "new"(kainos -brand new) someday.Others can scoff. We will see.
Yea well in 1800 BC a professor told me you would make arguments from nothing, refudiate your own religious scripture and try and change meanings to suit your needs without giving quote or a single ounce of evidence.
Has about as much meaning
oh my god that 1800 BC professor was RIGHT! who was it? what other predictions did they make?
...I see what you did there >.>
The earth show signs of such a water inundation or catastrophe as does the universe!
Mars and the moon show signs that large amounts of water was on these bodies.
Both of which are predicted by the current models used by science... this is not proof of a mass of water in the universe.
There was a second flood of water on this earth in Genesis 7 we have read or heard about.
I have read that there is no proof of such a flood... in particular, it would of needed to triple the amount of water on earth to be able to cover the mountains... Where did all that water go? Where did all that water come from?
Others can scoff.
Because you make outstanding claims without even any standard evidence to support them. So yes, chances are most people here will scoff... and some will laugh.
We will see.
Not likely. In the 2000 years since the bible was written we still havn't seen anything biblical occur... chances are this pattern will continue.
To the lovely Liam,
There is also another possibility... I could be right, but have chosen the wrong religion... At which point, guess I'll see you in hell.
You, obviously just don't understand how many religions are out there - thousands - we have simlty chosen one more wrong one than you - how many times has this been said???? I reiterate - THOUSANDS - and they are also a really interesting read - some less violent than yours, some more violent than yours - but all myth just the same.
The thing that I know when xians come onto an Atheist discussion,they are here to evangelise.
xians don't read anything - including their bible. And they don't answer questions - because hey can't, their brain just must go into a fug. I have asked many questions of xians and they just don't answer, and so become very boring.
Once again, as an example Have you read the Flood of Gildermesh -
Copy and Paste - because I know you will not go to the site:
Gilgamesh’s supposed historical reign is believed to have been approximately 2700 BCE, shortly before the earliest known written stories. The discovery of artifacts associated with Aga and Enmebaragesi of Kish, two other kings named in the stories, has lent credibility to the historical existence of Gilgamesh.
The Epic of Gilgamesh has been of interest to Christians ever since its discovery in the mid-nineteenth century in the ruins of the great library at Nineveh, with its account of a universal flood with significant parallels to the Flood of Noah's day. The rest of the Epic, which dates back to possibly third millennium B.C., contains little of value for Christians, since it concerns typical polytheistic myths associated with the pagan peoples of the time. However, some Christians have studied the ideas of creation and the afterlife presented in the Epic. Even secular scholars have recognized the parallels between the Babylonian, Phoenician, and Hebrew accounts, although not all are willing to label the connections as anything more than shared mythology.
This is just one of the many myths that have been pinched, stolen, retrofitted and adapted to whatever religion was going at the time - this one, the flood is the same, the ark is the same, the animals are similar, but myth - all the same.
I can kind of forgive the OT being unoriginal. It makes sense that it was based on other religions in the region.
What I can't condone though is how plagiarized the New Testament and the whole Jesus story is, which was invented thousands of years later. There are really few original aspects to it. Virgin birth, teachings, disciples, death, resurrection. All done before. Even the message is very simple and hardly new.
Or how the main holidays like Easter and Christmas are stolen from fertility cults, solstice celebrations, Roman festivals like Saturnalia and pagan ones like Yule. It makes sense to take on other culture's rituals if you want to convert them (the Romans did that a lot), but at least be honest about it