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Permalink Reply by Dustin on March 12, 2013 at 10:08pm

"Don't forget that mothers give their lives for their children"

When my little 2 year old niece decided to crawl into the deep end and I was the only one who noticed the little angel slowly sinking to the bottom, I screamed out her name and swam to the edge of the pool to climb out, starting running to the deep end to save her while every male around the pool was rushing over to jump in.  All the females just stood there screaming and the mother (my aunt) was hyperventilating and crying while it all took place, screaming her husbands name as well.   

Her baby was drowning and she just stood there in panic screaming her husbands name as if he was the one obligated to jump in with his clothes and wallet and shoes on to save her while she (In a bathing suit) did nothing.

It's baffled me ever since.  

Permalink Reply by Cara Coleen on March 12, 2013 at 11:33pm

I know you know cultural conditioning has a lot to do with this/everything. Men are taught to charge forward, and women are taught to hang back... and stay out of the way. Outside of social conditioning, I don't think gender has anything to do with this.

I could also remind you of the cowardly father that left his wife and kids in the theater, and got into his car to drive away! We could go back and forth, trading stories about men that ran away and women that failed to jump in... or men that were abusive, or women that were violent. It proves nothing about gender. It proves people suck. It proves there are different personalities, and some personalities are disappointingly shitty.

C'mon. You're a pattern-seeking primate. You/we make connections where there are none. Correlation does not equal causation. We can all agree our culture shapes our identities. Atheists have rejected religious indoctrination. Why can't we reject cultural indoctrination in the same way? There are differences in genders, but not to the degree we've been programmed to think.

Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on March 13, 2013 at 5:25am

J. says she would "stand in front of a shooter" for me. 

Permalink Reply by Dustin on March 13, 2013 at 2:35pm

Yes I would cry if my girlfriend gave her life for me.  But that would most likely be because she deeply loved me and it wasn't just a natural reaction she had because society has brought her up that way.  

I remember one of the boyfriends, it was like...their 2nd date or something and he pushed her to the ground and protected her.

I don't know what I would do in such a situation but honestly, if I didn't do such an act I believe I would feel a bit less human, a bit less like 'a man' should feel.  I may feel inferior.  But even me who knows it's all just social conditioning and that the womans body is quite capable of saving my body considering a bullet will penetrate through both sexes just as easily...well...that's the thing.  Is it just social conditioning or is it deeper than that in our subconscious/instincts?

 

Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on March 13, 2013 at 3:17pm

@Dustin -

"Is it just social conditioning or is it deeper than that in our subconscious/instincts?" 

That's an interesting point.  The way I see it, males fight with each other to win females.  In a TV nature documentary kind of way, that's how the best genes get to reproduce.  So it's men's job to fight and get killed, women's job to protect the children.  (In a basic over-simplified way.) 

Permalink Reply by Cara Coleen on March 13, 2013 at 11:03pm

What's confusing to me about what you're saying, Dustin, is that it sounds like you think giving your life for someone out of love is inferior to giving your life as a natural, impulsive instinct. One is a conscious, purposeful act... and the other is a reflex, like kicking when the doctor knocks your knee with his rubber hammer.

Am I supposed to respect the fact that men give their life because they fear they won't seem manly, rather than out of love? Being perceived as weak is worse than death? Because, honestly, I think that's pretty pathetic... and makes me look at the whole thing in a totally different light. I don't want someone to throw themselves in front of a bullet for me if they're greatest fear is not losing me, but that their buddies will think less of them. Gross.

I hope that's not what you mean.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on March 13, 2013 at 11:28pm

@Cara Colleen

Am I supposed to respect the fact that men give their life because they fear they won't seem manly, rather than out of love?

I think in the case of the men who shielded their partners with their own bodies, it's hard to imagine that a thought like "I'd rather be killed than be thought unmanly" crossed their mind. A thought like that might cross a man's mind if a couple are out and they experience a blowout of a tire. In that case, he's likely to want to be the one to change the tire because he feels it's the manly thing to do.

When men do heroic things there may be some love involved but I'd say it has a lot more to do with a sense of duty. By contrast, women who behave heroically (as in shielding a child) do so more out of love than duty.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on March 13, 2013 at 1:19pm

Some women are desperate for responsibility. Many are quite happy with the level of low responsibility they have now, feeling they have more than enough responsibility outside of work as it is. Or else they want a quiet relatively low-pressure life.

One thing many feminists or women's advocates do is to make sweeping statements that seem to cover ALL women in much the way the Republicans get up there and make sweeping statements like "The American people want/don't want..." as if the American people were a homogeneous group all of the same opinion.

Women aren't desperate to take on responsibility. Some are, some are not. Quite frankly, it's the same with men. 

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Permalink Reply by Unseen on March 12, 2013 at 12:53pm

You know, you're awfully given to anecdotal evidence ABOUT YOURSELF! I'm sure we're all glad we know so much more about you. I know I am.

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Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on March 12, 2013 at 1:00pm

Is that good or bad? 

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Permalink Reply by Unseen on March 12, 2013 at 1:01pm

That's for each of us to answer on our own.

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Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on March 12, 2013 at 1:03pm

I think it's good. 

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