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Permalink Reply by James on March 18, 2011 at 10:07pm

If we are talking about the Christian god then yes, we have shown his acts to have actually been natural works. We know the universe is not 6,000 years old, we understand big bang cosmology, we understand that the diversity on life is due to evolution, rather than instantaneous creation, etc, etc. When the Bible makes a specific claim that God did it X way, and science reveals that it actually occurred in the manner of Y, we can then see that the claim that God did it like he said he did is false. If you want to speak of a deistic god for whom there are no specific claims... Then yes, you could argue that the natural processes are how he set it up.

Something would still need to leave the atemporal real when you are talking about...creation, for example. At the very least his magic/energy would need to 'cross over'. But remember, he is said to have made visits in person and interacted with others. This would mean entering our realm entirely. To say he alone can exist in a different realm and never have to leave no matter what is nothing more than special pleading.

As for looking into Christ... I have and still do. Remember, I was once a believer. I learned all I could then, as I do now. I will review any new information I find, for or against my current stance. Thing is, the more I knew about Jesus the less likely him being a divine savior became. Obviously I ended up becoming an Atheist. That said, I don't write of his existence  de facto. I actually feel that it's likely that a man named Jesus (or someone the character is based off of may have existed). But that he was just a man with a following, like many of the corner preachers of the time. But not divine, the son of a god nor resurrected from the grave. But should evidence be revealed that shows me to be wrong, I will revise this view. However, everything I've learned does nothing but reinforce it. Oh... I also agree that Strobel leaves much to be desired...

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Permalink Reply by Gravity Tractor on March 17, 2011 at 6:41am

I'd agree with the statement "I believe that the pivotal point from where all logic flows is whether or not God exists.", although I have trouble using the words god and logic in the same sentence, really.

 

I don't believe that any "god" exists or ever has existed, but, to play along with your talking points, If I'm going to choose to follow "god", which one should I follow?  There have been over 4000 throughout the course of human history...  

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Permalink Reply by Freek on March 17, 2011 at 8:38am

Doesn't the bible also say you should love God (just as you should fear him)?

And doesn't the bible say that with love there is no fear?

How would that work?

As for the pivotal points. No, I don't belief in God (or any god), and even if he (Jahweh in this case) existed it would be very doubtful whether I want to follow him.

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Permalink Reply by bill owen on March 17, 2011 at 1:44pm

I love you. This is perhaps one of my favorite bible contradictions. Unfortunately i don't have a hebrew-english parallel bible, but i know that there are more than 3 hebrew words generally translated into fear in English, and there are also quite a few for love. One can however, take the word fear used in context in proverbs 1 and john 4 and compare the two. They have different meanings that are more apparent in hebrew, but for starters, the first one is more close to reverence and the second is more close to terror. We can revere God without having to be terrified of the coming judgement- because we know that if we revere God, we will not be condemned. That is essentially what John is saying.

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Permalink Reply by Freek on March 17, 2011 at 2:39pm

But if you revere God just so you will not be condemned, isn't that still an act of fear?

And why would you revere him? if he is omnipotent, everything should be a piece of cake. And would you revere a dictator because he has the potential power to destroy you?

 

As for loving God, I don't even know him (much less know if he's real). And love goes both ways.

 

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Permalink Reply by bill owen on March 17, 2011 at 3:57pm

It isn't that simple. I don't revere God because I know I will not be condemned; I know I will not be condemned because i revere God. True reverence doesn't come from terror, but terror is eliminated by reverence. That is also why I would not revere an evil dictator.  But why then do I revere God? Because of His love! :D  Too many people look at the evil of this world and forget one of the most fundamental beliefs of christianity: John 3:16

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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on March 17, 2011 at 4:06pm

How do you know there is a god to feel this love for you? John 3:16 was based on the false pretext that there was a god in the first place, and it is flawed by the lack of an historical Jesus-figure. You might just as well worship superman, because that book shows a super being who lost his entire family but found it in his heart to love a race that was not even his own.

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Permalink Reply by Freek on March 17, 2011 at 5:59pm

Do you think sacrificing his son was the only way for God to reverse the fall to sin?

If yes, can you still say that God is omnipotent, and all good for that matter since he is the one judging sin anyway.

If no, why should this brutal behavior be something that should be loved?

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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on March 17, 2011 at 6:10pm

Brilliant one, Freek!  It not only addresses his refusal to specify why he thinks there is a god but, further, it completely undermines the entire basis of Christianity in a single, perfect stroke.  :D

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Permalink Reply by bill owen on March 17, 2011 at 9:03pm

Very good one indeed! I'll be the first to admit I had to think quite a bit about this one! My response would be this: Jesus' crucifixion was the only way to reverse the fall of sin. So how could God still be omnipotent if He can't find any other way? Simply put, there is no other way to find. Could He create another way? Possibly, but what would that entail and who are you to say it would be a better solution? The fact is, Jesus was the best solution, and He was the plan from the very beginning. Why should this brutal behavior be loved? I'm glad you asked! Lets start at free will. God gave us free will, knowing that it would end in our demise. Why the hell would He create us to be destroyed?? Well, would you rather not have free will? If you had no free will, you may as well not be alive to begin with. How could there be purpose or meaning to anything if there were no free will? Yes, you say? You would rather have never come into existence than to exist only to be destroyed? Well what if God, in light of the fact that we would sin, knew that He was going to take that punishment for you when He created you? Then would you still be willing to be created? I would. I believe in God and I'm glad to be alive - in the same sentence. :O  This is simply the only way it could have been. For more insight I suggest C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity.

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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on March 18, 2011 at 2:04am

If god knew this was all going to happen then it was pre-ordained, meaning free will doesn't exist.  If killing his son was the 'best' solution then it was because he made it so - so he wanted to kill his son, and that is really quite sick.  But it still doesn't address the issue that there is no such thing as god and all this drivel is just cluttering the boards with your dogmatic beliefs - which you stated to me personally was not your intention.

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Permalink Reply by bill owen on March 18, 2011 at 2:04pm

wrong. God knew it was going to happen, but that does NOT mean it made it happen just because He is omnipotent. He allowed us to have our own free will and by doing so gave us power over our own thoughts and actions that HE DOES NOT CONTROL.  Not because He can't, because He doesn't want to. He wants us to decide, otherwise love would not exist.

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