Greetings! I am just going to come out and say that I am what you might call I crazy, die hard, delusional Jesus freak, though I do not discourage any discussion about how wrong I am. That is essentially why I am here. I have somewhat become addicted to looking into religious discussion and anything and everything related to it. I want to acquire as much knowledge as I can, and I think this is an excellent place to do so. I am not here to offend anyone and I would love to be able to stay in this community for a while. I don't kow how accepting you guys are of outsiders, but judging by what I have seen on this site so far, most of you are pretty open. So, without further adieu, I would simply like to state how intrigued I am by atheism! From a theological perspective, you and I are polar opposites! I mean to the ends of the earth OPPOSITE.  I as a christian believe what I have read in the book of Proverbs: that fear of God is the beginnig of wisdom. With that, my entire life is constantly in pursuit of God and this wisdom! I don't fear him because He is evil, but because He is all powerful. Surely this makes sense? If an all powerful God did exist, it would be foolish not to be afraid of Him. I read somewhere in the quote of the day section, that the beginning of wisdom is the "conquering of fear". Obviously this quote was intended to directly oppose the verse from Proverbs, but I am curious nonetheless whether all or most of the atheist community agrees with this. This would have intriguing implications! Does your life center upon eliminating fear? Fear of the imaginary God, fear of man, fear of death? Do you strive to live a fearless life in the sense that you don't allow fear to control your actions? I would too if there were no God. But instead I WANT fear to control my every thought! I am completely aware of how foolish that is, but I am completely okay with that too!

I want to get on the same page with you here. We are all human beings. We are all more or less equally able to think logically. I believe that the pivotal point from where all logic flows is whether or not God exists. Let me start by saying that if God does not exist, then I would completely agree nearly atheist based ideology-everything that has anything to do with the secular world view, I would LIVE by. Now assume for a moment that you were on the same side as I am, all evidence aside. There is a God. He is the perfect King. Everyone loves Him and everyong respects Him and admires His wisdom. Everyone also fears Him, for if they are on the wrong side of the law, He can justly punish them. Who would respect a Ruler who was a pushover and didn't care about justice? Now, if this God was perfect in the absolute sense, would it not be logical to dedicate your life to trying to be like Him? And if you weren't afraid of Him, would you be able to do that? I just want to try to clarify that if what I believe is true, then I am following the logical course of action by allowing this fear/love combination to take over my life. Do you agree with me? Yes? Then the pivotal point I established earlier must be real, and all ideology flows in two general directions starting from whether you believe God is real or not. No? Then lets continue.


If you disagree with me, then twe have arrived at a second pivotal point in our differences. First being whether you believe in God, and the second (being on the belief side) whether you want to follow this God or not. What do you guys think about these pivotal points? Which one is more important?

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Good do know I don't offend you. :)  Okay well I've never heard that one before, but it is a good start indeed. All of this logic is very sound, except for the initial assumption. "If X creates Y, then X must exist temporally prior to Y". I agree that X must exist and that if X existed temporally it would be prior to Y, however, what if X existed extra-temporally, like God. That would destroy your argument, wouldn't it?

So now the real discussion becomes whether the extra-temporal existence is possible, and honestly I think thats a bit too unfathomable for all of us, but you can try and disprove it if you wish. Or hit me with another one.

Hmm, I like that phrase, extra-temporal. In the context of a multiverse theory, it makes more sense to me than to say that our universe was created "from nothing".

Anyway, the fact that I prefer to believe in the multiverse theory doesn't mean much in my daily life. In fact, to say I "believe in it" isn't saying much. Ditto for God. What difference does it make whether God exists or not? Even if God exists, or multiverses exist, or big bangs exist, they don't affect our lives. So it's not even important that we prove or disprove their existence.

Most importantly, we can be scientific and learn about the universe and describe it. No ancient book can help us do that, because we need to discover these things for ourselves, and then we can write down our experiences so that others can verify the findings. In fact, scientists on different sides of the world can eventually come to the same discoveries and conclusions, even if they never communicate with each other, because they're discovering universal reality.

Not true for God. Men have consistently--without proof--described God as a He, who wants us to do this or that or He will do this or that to us. Unquestioned, ancient myths are the only basis for such beliefs. Dogma, immune to doubt or correction.

No, I don't believe in something just because I'm fearful, or because it's the local, unquestionable tradition perpetuated by peer pressure. More importantly, to answer your question is the existence of God is a pivotal question: No, why should I care?!

What I do care about is people trying to make me believe in myth, or leaders making decisions based on their mythical beliefs, or fundamentalists destroying rights and life in the name of Him.

Now ask me if the existence of Pink Unicorns is a pivotal question.


Is our belief in the existence of Pink unicorns a pivotal point in the flow of ideology?

Haha, usually not. Only if you fear them!?

Haha, thats what I figured as well. :P

Sorry for kinda ignoring your post. I'm working on a good one for Nelson and Evey.

But I don't know, there is always that extra dimension of time theory that could explain extra-temporal existence, but that would require God to exists within that dimension. I think of God as more of a dimensionless being. Oh, and I'm glad to hear you aren't on the bandwagon, good sir. It is never the wisest of reasoning. I'm not on the christian bandwagon, either. Well, I was initially of course, but that was when I wasn't a true christian.




God exists outside of time. This is already a pretty thoroughly known fact about God..

Don't you mean an established facet of Christian dogma? How can there be any known facts about 'God'?
oh yes, thank you for the correction
well this is a repetition of you're original argument, so again i say that God as an established facet of christian dogma exists outside of time. You can try to disprove extra temporal existence, but really all you or anyone can say about that is 'it makes no sense to me, and therefore i reject it', or 'it makes no sense to me, but that doesn't make it impossible'. Either way we are really just running around the concept in circles- no human logic can prove or disprove such a thing.
Actually the true fallacy here is the premise that any god exists at all, let alone existing outside of time.  Do you have any evidence to suggest that a god exists?

Thanks, but this is a red herring. I'm not trying to prove that God exists, I'm just saying that if He does, He does so atemporally.

The point is that he cannot exist atemporally because he does not exist at all. You have come to an atheist discussion forum to discuss 'god' while offering no proof that any god exists and now you seem surprised that this is turning into a red herring?

Why is it exactly that you believe a god exists?


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