I wanted to get everyones perspective on the Christian mentality of "We are all born sinners". Obviously this is not a sentiment I agree with.
The only argument I have yet to hear from a Christian is "it just means we are not born perfect". Despite the fact that very few Christians define sin as "imperfect"
Well first they need to convince you that you're sick before they can sell you a cure.
Exactly this. Just aggressive marketing to the ignorant.
Since sinning is the performance of an act that violates religious teachings, I don't see how one could be a "born" sinner.
I understand the original sin bit, and reject it as ludicrous (not the rapper). Strangely, I've talked to Christians who have no awareness of teachings regarding original sin. They are usually believers who claim that the bible is 100% true and the direct word of their god, but haven't bothered reading the thing.
Its baffling sometimes.
I dimly recall Catholicism's teaching that newborns inherit Adam's sin.
It sidesteps the illogic of "born sinner".
Yup, the original sin gig. The problem with the whole sons of the sinner bearing the sins of the father to the nth generation is that it makes a mockery of the concept of justice. Original sin stretches the concept through all generations starting with Adam & Eve, and just highlights how ridiculous it is.
...how cruel it is.
Dunno. The Old Testament is about justice (as fucked up as "justice" can be) but, nevertheless justice - "an eye for an eye". The New Testament is "turn the other cheek", "who casts the first stone", etc.
I have a feeling that, ecclesiastically, original sin might be related to humility. We are all sinners in the sense that there is very little we might do in a day that, had we been able to think it through better or better predict the outcome, we would not have done differently/better. Being a "sinner" (thinking "how can I do better", equates to self-reflection - which is not a bad thing.
I have a feeling that, ecclesiastically, original sin might be related to humility.
Upon reading that, Mike, I thought it might not be related to humility, but to poor self esteem. Catholicism succeeds marvelously at creating that.
Then I saw your
Being a "sinner" (thinking "how can I do better", equates to self-reflection - which is not a bad thing.
I looked at it for a moment and knew it's equally true with one letter changed.
Being a "winner" (thinking "how can I do better", equates to self-reflection - which is not a bad thing.
Recovery can take a while, Mike. I hope you make it.
Recovery can take a while, Mike. I hope you make it.
No, Tom. I need no recovery. The only time I've thought of God or religion in the last forty or fifty years is while participating in forums like this.
You can go with the assumption that the Catholic religion and every one of its adherents are intrinsically evil - which puts you right at home here on TA. I prefer to assume that some Catholics, while deluded, are genuinely caring people. I personally know many.
I know that humility is grossly out of fashion these days. Children are taught that they need "ME time" - that THEIR aspirations are all that really matter. It doesn't matter how you play the game - being a "winner" is what counts. And we can't figure out how we've managed to spawn a society based solely on greed.
Upon reading that line, Mike, I thought it might not be related to humility, but to poor self esteem. Catholicism succeeds marvelously at creating that.
Yes, humility and poor self esteem are related. But in our society high self-esteem is promoted and humility is for losers.
I'm going to go ahead and continue striving for a happy life - not one where my puny interests dominate those of others.
With a few exceptions of Christians who just want to stir up trouble and/or make us see the error of our ways, we're all atheists here. I was raised Catholic, and to hear the usual mantra about Catholicism based on guilt is irritating. Catholicism certainly has its issues, both philosophically, historically, and administratively, but the general principle that there are consequences for your actions is the one thing that it has going for it, comparatively speaking, from one Christian religion to another. If you are to believe in this ridiculous notion of god and are going to call yourself a Catholic, therefore, by default, agreeing with what they think god wants, then follow the gnikcuf rules. That's the whole point of rules. You either obey them or you face the music, either in the perceived afterlife (unless repented by their rules), or by being excommunicated, if you defiantly break those rules. If you break those rules, then you should feel guilty, because you are. That principle is the reality of life, or at least it should be.
Ah, but the catholic church tries to make people feel guilty just for being human--that is, for having the ordinary desires and feelings that humans have. It isn't just about breaking rules.
If those desires are things that against their rules, then, yeah, it is. Lust, greed, pride, envy, sloth, gluttony, and wrath are all 7 of the deadly sins. They're all are about ordinary desires & feelings, and they're called sins. I just think they have been the one religion that gets bashed for trying to hold their members accountable for their own rules. Everyone's always trying to weasel their way out their commitments, whether it's commitment to the rules of an organization they belong to, or a contract they're in, or their marriage, or whatever applies, and when someone calls them on it, they whine that that person (or entity) is too rigid, uptight, negative, etc.
The very notion that there's a god out there (or, for that matter, any supernatural beliefs) is childlike fantasy and pure silliness, but most of the rules of any religion are based upon desires, feelings and/or acts that can, and often will, get you in trouble with yourself, your neighbor, or your surrounding world, in general. The reason for so many sects of each religion is about the disagreement about which specific rules to set. So, as an adult, if you're deciding to be part of one of these (therefore, saying you agree with their view), then you shouldn't bitch about those rules. Move on the next church, or, better yet, come to your senses and join us atheists. That's all I'm saying.