Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by James Rule on March 12, 2010 at 7:43am

That's a fantastic approach you have there, I especially like the "So in giving free will God would have known that it would caused humanity to sin, and therefore God creates the sin, then punishes us for letting us choose it?"
I will do some reading up on those verses as well as browse around myself for some of the numerous contradictions within the Bible.
""I'm sorry but I'm only accepting guidance from God himself or Jesus.""
That is perfect.
Thanks alot Martin.

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Permalink Reply by Dan on March 12, 2010 at 11:15pm

"If God exterminated all evil creatures does that mean ducks and fish aren't evil? Since a great flood wouldn't have killed them?"

I know I'm nitpicking and it's kind of off topic, but a flood like the one described in the bible would have killed both fish and ducks. It would have killed fish because it would have mixed both fresh and salt water. Most fish are only adapted to one or the other. The salmon is one of the only fish I am aware of that can survive in both. Actually I think guppies can as well, but even then a global flood would have changed the fishes habitat so much and so rapidly that aside from maybe some deep sea dwelling fish it would be unlikely for any fish to survive. Ducks would die because it would be difficult if not impossible to find food.

Of course, this doesn't change how absurd the flood is. The question simply becomes where did all the fish come from if they all would have died in the flood and Noah didn't take them on the ark. Magic?

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Permalink Reply by Bryan Hargrave on March 13, 2010 at 10:45am

Dan Dan Dan, dont you know... god just made it possible for all of that to happen during the flood. once it was over he made it so ducks needed food again, and so that fish were only able to survive in their original habitats. also, all of the animals on that magic boat were vegetarian during the ride.

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Permalink Reply by James Rule on March 14, 2010 at 7:51am

Noah's ark is probably in the top 40 most ridiculous biblical stories. Though. It made for a rather humorous Steve Carrel movie.
I think another great way to clash up against the Noah's ark story is simple.
"If only two of each animal were taken, why is it, that two species that have similar birth/death rates, could have outlandishly different population numbers?"
or
"How does one man get 2 of every animal onto one boat, if collecting 2 of every animal in the time of Noah, including sea travel to distant continents and finding animals, would have taken a life time or 9?"
"In the time of Noah, Australia was undiscovered, was their Kangaroo's on Noah's ark?"
"Why did Noah accept such a shit job? Seriously, that's alot of cleaning to do."
"How did he keep the animals under control and stop them from jumping overboard in mindless attempts to return to their natural habitat?"
"Why wasn't he mauled by the carnivorous animals?"
The list goes on.
Thanks for your wonderful responses guys.
Peace.

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Permalink Reply by James Rule on March 12, 2010 at 8:03am

http://www.facebook.com/nogods?
Currently involved in rather heated debated with multiple members over gods will to create sin.
Help an Atheist brother out. The Christians have ganged up on about 3 lonely atheists :(

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Permalink Reply by Bryan Hargrave on March 12, 2010 at 11:10am

i read the bible. i start my discussions with the first chapter of genesis. dont tell them that they are wrong, ask them for answers to the things you dont understand.... "why does genesis say that light was created before the sun, and that the moon also produces light?". let them sit on that. ask them "the bible says to fear god, and that god is love, but also that there is no fear in love... im confused, can you spread some light on the subject".

read the bible, or whichever book you will be arguing. make them think that you are opening up to them and that they will have a chance to free you from what you think.... when all the while you are just pointing out the holes in their beliefs. let their own logic grab hold of them. you cant ever, EVER, convince a person to change what they believe. it is something they have to do on their own. thats not to say that you cant booby trap them with a rational thought process.

a last minute note.. before you start chucking the bible around, make sure you find the actual translated versions of the words. for example, they had 13 words that all meant very different things.... we sum all of them up with one. love. so you have to be careful about tossing around contradictions and definitions... you may be opening yourself up to be the stupid guy who didnt do his research. but, chances are they still dont know as much about that book as you.

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Permalink Reply by James Rule on March 14, 2010 at 7:44am

"the bible says to fear god, and that god is love, but also that there is no fear in love... im confused, can you spread some light on the subject".
I like that "Spread some light". Excellent.
I have read the bible a fair bit, but I think I will have to give some of the actual translations a geez.
Thanks for the recommendation.
Peace.

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Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on March 12, 2010 at 5:06pm

It's going to depend largely on the nature of their belief. If it's a matter of closed-mindedness, there's a reason that they are closing their mind off. Something is causing that reaction, and it isn't rationality. If rationality is not what is motivating a given belief, attacking the belief rationally won't get you anywhere.

It's a matter of reading the reactions a person gives you and matching your approach to how they throw barriers up. Sympathize, look for opportunities for sincere dialog (even if it's off topic, even if it's heated), then provoke thoughts as opportunities arise. Consider also any baggage that you bring into the conversation yourself and make sure it doesn't affect your approach.

Getting through a closed mind is almost strictly a matter of manipulating human nature, in my opinion, and has little to do with making logical arguments. That said, employing fallacies or outright lies will only hurt a person's cause if they're making an appeal to reason (as opposed to conversion). Think of it as a strategy game.

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Permalink Reply by James Rule on March 14, 2010 at 7:42am

An interesting way of looking at it, I will defiantly attempt this at the next opportunity. Seems very rational...
Though, of course it all changes if the close-minded person also happens to be obnoxiously stubborn. I guess those types are best left alone though.
Thanks for the great response.
Peace.

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