Herbert and Catherine Schaible asked God to heal their 8-month-old baby son with magic while he spent days struggling to breathe. He died last week. They were still on probation for manslaughter after letting their two-year-old son die of pneumonia in 2009 under similar circumstances: they sought the aid of supernatural beings with magical powers rather than doctors with medical degrees.
Imagine Herbert and Catherine Schaible had killed a toddler in 2009 with a savage beating or by neglecting it in favor of watching Star Trek DVDs for a week straight while it coughed itself to death. Would they have gotten probation for that or would they still be sitting in prison today? How likely is it that, once placed in the hands of a jury, Herbert and Catherine Schaible will ever spend time in prison for killing the second of two small children with religiously motivated medical neglect?
You might want to Google similar cases before you post your thoughts on the matter.
You continue to filibuster. Let's just start with the raw numbers - over 10,000 victims in the United States alone. How many victims were reported for the Boy Scouts of America?
Let's move through this one point at a time since you continue to use obfuscating rhetoric to belittle the ass-raping done by your clerics.
@Heather, I'm not sure it's filibustering to point out that the actual content of the letter which concerned you was an admonition to respect the due process rights of the accused.
It is always tempting when faced with heinous crimes to want to dismantle legal protections and proceed directly to punishment. Just look at the tom-fool elected officials who wanted to proceed immediately to military tribunals and "enhanced interrogation" on Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. Despite that temptation, we ensure justice by protecting the rights of the accused, because sometimes the accused are innocent.
I believe the Boy Scout numbers were around 4,000 victims over a somewhat shorter period of time, but that's my memory from the L.A. Times pieces. Of course, there are many fewer Boy Scouts than Catholics. Roughly a quarter of the U.S. population is Catholic, and I believe the Boy Scout market share is around 5% of eligible youth; less if you consider boys of the age range typical for this abuse.
And when provided with an opportunity to fill in the data with which you make your comparisons - you filibuster some more and toss out a rather round number 'from memory'.
The fact is you aren't able to deal in facts when it comes to your cult. You've been brainwashed, and no matter how systematic they are in raping children you'll continue to sign over a portion of your wages while refusing to see what you are supporting. That's just so sad.
Of course I've read the Jay Report, and I at least have some familiarity with the Ryan Reports. Have you actually read the full text?
Next you need to dig into it a bit. An allegation of abuse is not the same thing as being guilty of rape. Some allegations are false. Many allegations are for things like an unwelcome hug or a spanking (recognizing that while corporal punishment is no longer common in schools, it was at the time, and still is in some public schools). So when you distill down the credible cases of actual molestation, they are consistent with those reported in the general population.
That doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it any less than evil for anyone trusted with a child to do such things. It should be condemned. I generally agree that prosecutions and punishments for these crimes should be more severe than they are, and that being otherwise respected or upstanding citizens (clergy, sports coaches, teachers, parents, etc.) should not get them more gentle treatment.
It's a different thing, though, to cast aspersions on a whole group of people for the sins of a few. Lots of atheists are murderers, after all; more still are no doubt on the receiving end of allegations of wrongdoing. That does not mean that it's fair to condemn atheism as a mode of thought based solely on that statistic.
Ah, careful about assumptions, @Gallup. I said I had read the full Jay Report. I had also been peripherally involved in some of the follow-up, especially in the Archdiocese of Boston. I have not read all the Irish materials, however.
Yes, the cases are awful. Yes, clerics and some religious superiors should go to jail. Yes, those who perpetrated or abetted such acts committed grave sins which we would consider "mortal". Absolutely, 100% on board with all of that. So is everyone on the planet. Your outrage is old hat. Most of us were there long before you, and were far more outraged than you, because these were "our" kids.
What you haven't done is made a case that the incident rate was higher for the Catholic Church than for any other youth-serving organization. Yep, the numbers are big in Ireland, but then there are an awful lot of Catholics in Ireland, aren't there?
When Jerry Sandusky was accused of raping a child, his superiors didn't report him to the police. Here in the U.S., we still don't have mandatory reporting for such things in most states, and if you believe that schools and sports programs have been perfect or even good about reporting for "decades" with no reporting law in place you are just being naive. The prevailing norm until relatively recently was to try to protect the child from public exposure, and just quietly force the resignation of the perpetrator.
By all means, condemn pedophiles and those who abet pedophiles. That is right and just. To claim a particular religious group is uniquely responsible for pedophiles, however, is just bigotry.
I said clergy and the religious are prosecuted less often for the crimes they commit.
A claim. Now provide evidence and reasoning.
At the start of this exchange, I wrote, and you quoted to respond: "The scale of abuse cases was on the order of those that occur in the general population worldwide, among coaches and teachers and others."
Since you now say that you make no claim to disagree with that statement, we're on the same page. That was my only point.
I'd gently suggest, though, that if someone were to write repeatedly and at length and with animus about how the Jews are guilty of particular crimes, even though others are also guilty of those crimes at the same incident rate, that's bigotry.
No different if it's Catholics.
LOL. Well, I think I have lost the point entirely, I'm afraid.
I thought you said you read the Jay report, which goes into some detail about abuse allegations across various youth serving organizations and provides substantial evidence for my claim.
@Heather is exploring the comparison with the Boy Scouts of America above. Follow along.
And YOU made this about the Catholic Church sexual abuse scandal. I was talking about parents getting away with religiously-motivated medical neglect of their children. If you don't want to talk about pedophile priests don't bring them up.
I think if you look back in the thread you'll find that it was @JimmyRussell and yourself that brought it up, actually. It seems to be a favorite whipping horse here that comes up in many threads on unrelated topics.
Did you know anyone personally who was sexually molested by a Catholic priest?
Yes, sadly. And by a family member, and another by a teacher/coach, and by a lay married couple who seemed to like doing sex ed with a number of children in their youth group.
I take it I now know another?
I myself was never molested, however. Quite the contrary, my personal relationships with priests and nuns while growing up were enormously positive, and still are. So I cannot begin to understand the pain and betrayal of a victim of one of these heinous crimes.
You sound as though your personal experience was different than mine, and if that is the case I can only express my deepest, deepest sympathy and solidarity. You have my support, if you ever need it. You have my prayers, for what they're worth. Others will help, if you reach out, and I would encourage you to do so.
Please forgive me for bringing an academic discussion to a situation which may be deeply personal. Anyone who has been a victim of such things is entitled to be angry, and indeed such anger is a necessary part of healing. They don't need a silly old professorial type droning on. My sincerest apologies.
You have to be careful in matters of law, @Gallup. Mandatory reporting laws are for child abuse and neglect, and in most states only parents or legal guardians can commit child abuse or neglect by definition. The reporting laws were designed to pierce the special relationship and protections under the law that parents have in controlling their children, not to create a situation like the old Soviet system where people were required to report their relatives and neighbors for all suspected crimes. Mandatory reporting in child abuse and neglect cases is to an agency that does confidential investigations, not to law enforcement.
Sexual abuse by non-custodial adults or others is the crime of battery, and that is different under the law.
I have to ask why they have their kids. I would have hoped there would have been at least a psychiatric evaluation done as to mental stability. Kids aren't to blame as much as parents in this scenario. Kids can be taught to think. The parents in this case i suspect not as much. I think the failure comes in when courts see a religious case and suddenly get nervous about media. It took ages for things to come to light about that vatican
When I saw your reply in my email, I almost freaked out that you were serious so thanks for the link that provided context.
As a theist, I could not disagree more with Robert.