Herbert and Catherine Schaible asked God to heal their 8-month-old baby son with magic while he spent days struggling to breathe. He died last week. They were still on probation for manslaughter after letting their two-year-old son die of pneumonia in 2009 under similar circumstances: they sought the aid of supernatural beings with magical powers rather than doctors with medical degrees. 

Imagine Herbert and Catherine Schaible had killed a toddler in 2009 with a savage beating or by neglecting it in favor of watching Star Trek DVDs for a week straight while it coughed itself to death. Would they have gotten probation for that or would they still be sitting in prison today? How likely is it that, once placed in the hands of a jury, Herbert and Catherine Schaible will ever spend time in prison for killing the second of two small children with religiously motivated medical neglect?

You might want to Google similar cases before you post your thoughts on the matter.

Tags: medical, motivated, neglect, religiously

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You would also think that child molestation would cause a much bigger noise too, if not the complete downfall.  Fuckin scary shit.  Makes me think how far away is any thiest from this kind of behavior?

Not far at all. The clergy of the Catholic Church for decades systematically covered up, enabled, or engaged in child rape and abuse on a scale that staggers the imagination. Indeed it almost seems preposterous to refer to these events in the past tense, as though a problem so utterly vile and pervasive could be eradicated all at once like plucking a weed by the roots.  What percentage of the perpetrators-- even ones who remain at large to this day-- ever spent any time in prison for their crimes?

Religion gets a free pass. The tiny minority of the truly deluded use religion as a cover to commit the worst of the crimes, and then the overwhelming majority of the deluded (like our friend Robert) scramble to excuse and defend them. So they're let off.

Let's be honest about the data, @Gallup's Mirror.  A few clergy in the Catholic Church engaged in such things.  The scale of abuse cases was on the order of those that occur in the general population worldwide, among coaches and teachers and others. 

Yes, this is a problem, in youth work in the Church and youth work in the rest of society.  Relatively few Jerry Sandusky types or Boy Scout leaders or ministers get jail time, and usually not all that much jail time, and usually only after serially molesting quite a number of children.  To focus on just the Catholics when the problem is a broad societal one is just a bit biased, don't you think?

Let's be clear, though.  Challenging your data or conclusions is not the same thing as excusing or defending the very real perpetrators of such crimes.  Honestly, most of us would like to see them hung, or worse.  While we are not in favor of capital punishment, I don't think any of us shed a tear when John Geoghan met his end.  I know I did not.

A few clergy?  I think of 'a few' as being like 3 or 4....5 tops.  'A few' doesn't begin to cover it.

The last time I called you on your bullshit about Catholic child abuse you disappeared when I asked a few hard questions.   So let me repeat one:  How many other organizations do you know of that have an upper level management directive to keep police out of child abuse allegations?  Can you name ONE organization that has a directive from the board to be less than candid when the police come calling about a child who has been abused by a club official?

Sorry @Heather, I don't mean to "disappear."  I just have limited time and can only stop by occasionally.  It's also hard in these forums to find where to read or reply, because the new comments get embedded in the middle.

Your question is a bit disingenuous, because of course such a directive does not exist in the Catholic Church, and the governance structure of the church is not "management" and a board of directors.

From reading the news, apparently the Boy Scouts of America proceeded similarly; so did Penn State, where senior people kept police out or were less than candid so as to avoid negative publicity.  That was the case historically for physicians and public schools, which is why mandatory reporting statutes were put in place for those professions long before clergy.

By "a few" I was of course referring to the percentage of overall population.

Note Heather that Robert continues his Odyssey into the intellectually dishonest by ignoring the point and substance of the original topic.

I was not comparing the percentages of those who rape, abuse and murder children in various occupations relative to the clergy. I was comparing how often the clergy and religious get away with their crimes or cover for each other relative to the non-religious. That's the "zero days in prison" part of the topic title.

Upon hearing the news that a teacher is raping students how often does a school superintendent transfer the teacher to another school to keep it quiet? How often do police or prosecutors encourage the victim not to press charges so public education won't look bad? 

It's also worth noting that Robert is strangely silent on that these religious men-- who claim to have supernatural backing to lecture the rest of us on moral behavior-- have no better record than anyone else in the most reprehensible behavior imaginable.

Your question is a bit disingenuous, because of course such a directive does not exist in the Catholic Church, and the governance structure of the church is not "management" and a board of directors.

This one is my favorite. The denials of the cover-ups continue. The denials of the denials continue. The claims that the Church has no "management" are part of the special privilege that religion claims for itself. The Church has a hierarchy and governing bodies and whatever the call themselves-- the Assemblies of the Grand Hoo-Ha-- they issue directives. 

I was comparing how often the clergy and religious get away with their crimes or cover for each other relative to the non-religious.

That's a claim.  Now you must provide evidence and reasoning.  What is the rate at which other youth groups get away with their crimes or cover each other?  Can you establish that you have comparable access to data to establish equivalency of rates? 

No one denies that there were cover-ups.  However you do need to understand a bit more about the Assemblies of the Grand Hoo-Ha before you make any more silly claims. ;)

Now you must provide evidence and reasoning. 

I did. You haven't read it, remember?

I see - so you have some evidence that a national board of the Boy Scouts chose to keep a Boy Scout Leader on the active roster after he sexual abused a Boy Scout?  Please let me know about this case - I haven't heard of it.

Did the Vatican ever put out a directive telling bishops not to cooperate with police - to avoid firing priests who had raped children?  Oh yes they did.  Here's just one piece of evidence http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1348298/Vatican-told-Irish-...

Please provide me with evidence that a national board for the Boy Scouts ever sent out letters telling local chapter to NOT tell police about child rapes, or directed local chapter to NOT discharge rapist leaders (just have them moved to a place where they aren't known so well).

Your church uses your money to buy the silence of pedophile priests to protect it's own reputation - regardless of the peril that might pose to your own children.  You are incredibly twisted to actually defend that behavior in a public forum.

@Heather, did you read the actual letter?

The position of the Congregation on Clergy was that accused priests should be accorded due process, and if the Irish bishops failed to accord priests due process when taking action (like stripping them of their clerical status), those punishments may be reversed on appeal.

As heinous as the crime is, protecting the rights of the accused is part of common-sense jurisprudence.

You continue to filibuster.  Let's just start with the raw numbers - over 10,000 victims in the United States alone.  How many victims were reported for the Boy Scouts of America?

Let's move through this one point at a time since you continue to use obfuscating rhetoric to belittle the ass-raping done by your clerics.

@Heather, I'm not sure it's filibustering to point out that the actual content of the letter which concerned you was an admonition to respect the due process rights of the accused.

It is always tempting when faced with heinous crimes to want to dismantle legal protections and proceed directly to punishment.  Just look at the tom-fool elected officials who wanted to proceed immediately to military tribunals and "enhanced interrogation" on Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. Despite that temptation, we ensure justice by protecting the rights of the accused, because sometimes the accused are innocent.

I believe the Boy Scout numbers were around 4,000 victims over a somewhat shorter period of time, but that's my memory from the L.A. Times pieces.  Of course, there are many fewer Boy Scouts than Catholics.  Roughly a quarter of the U.S. population is Catholic, and I believe the Boy Scout market share is around 5% of eligible youth; less if you consider boys of the age range typical for this abuse.

And when provided with an opportunity to fill in the data with which you make your comparisons - you filibuster some more and toss out a rather round number 'from memory'.

The fact is you aren't able to deal in facts when it comes to your cult.  You've been brainwashed, and no matter how systematic they are in raping children you'll continue to sign over a portion of your wages while refusing to see what you are supporting.  That's just so sad.

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