Trying to Reason with Fundies is Pointless... so... what can we do?

The more time that passes and the more books I read, the more I realize how dangerous the religious right is, and how pointless it is to try to reason with them. You might as well be trying to argue with a brick wall. 

The Christian Nationalist movement (also known as Dominionism - which both Bachmann and Perry appear to have some ties to) is a subset of the evangelical community that is highly mobilized, extremely efficient, well financed, and extremely dangerous.

For many who do not know much about them, they are often dismissed as quacks that have no influence, and those who raise the alarm about them are accused (even in the liberal community) of being "alarmist over-reactors."


However... this is one of the most dangerous things about the Christian Nationalist movement.... their chameleon ability to appear harmless and even beneficial. Make no mistake! Those of us who watch them like hawks are NOT alarmists! They are more powerful than most people know, and they often lack any sense of moral decency. They are willing to lie, cheat, threaten, bribe, and even occasionally murder to get their way. They will hide their true motives from the American public with deceptive language, that often they have one message for the public, and another for their own kind. 


Knowing how dangerous they are, I wish I knew what to do about them. They are determined to take over the country and forcibly subdue it to biblical law. They are raping and rending the Constitution on their way there. 


I have tried using logic, reasoning, and modern scholarship to make them see that what they are doing is wrong in more ways than one. But as I have learned, this is pointless. 

Atheists can debate all they want. We can write books or throw books at them. We can point out logical fallacies or laugh at them. We can make youtube videos or send letters. We can flash our degrees at them and demand they recognize that we know what we're talking about. 

There is no point to this at all.

Christian Nationalists live in their own parallel universe. And certain aspects of this "universe" make it quite obvious that there is nothing we can say that will convince them that they are wrong.


Michelle Goldberg lays out the immunity that the Christian Nationalist delusion has devastatingly clear in the book "Kingdom Coming."

1. Most of the "warriors for Christ" have been brainwashed from infancy to believe only what their cult tells them to believe. They are denied public education and herded into either homeschooling or special fundamentalist christian schools... where like any cult, they are cut off from the outside world, until their brainwashing is so thorough that there is no escaping it.

2. They are trained to believe that mainstream science and academics are part of a liberal agenda, corrupted by professors and scientists who push an anti-christian religion. They will therefore, refuse to believe any of modern scholarship no matter how stacked the evidence is against them. In fact, the more the evidence is against them, the more they believe that they are the only pious people, the holders of the real truth that is being suppressed by evil anti-christians. There is no way to get through to them... so don't even try.

3. You can't use liberal christians to convince them because they believe mainstream christians are deluded agents of satan.


Basically, nothing we can say will ever get through to them. 

However it is absolutely essential that we stop their drive to push christianity on the country by force. My question is... what are we supposed to do? They cannot be reasoned with. They are relentless and enraged. They are well financed and have many "friends in high places" within our government. 


What can we do to stop them before it is too late?

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Actually if a Democrat wanted to run they could, and if they won enough primaries over Obama they could indeed be the candidate on the November 2012 ballot.  But they also need to be able depending on which states they are in, to get enough signatutures or put up enough money to get on the state ballot.


No a Presidential election, but a senatorial race. Just last year and much in the news.

He could step down like Polk, Buchanan and Hayes did, there is no automation as far as I'm aware of, though it is politically near impossible. Just because I'm "not an American" does not immediately disqualify me for having knowledge regarding US politics... ;)

Arcus, maybe its just whom I choose to be around, but ALL my international friends know more about American politics and issues that a good 75% of the average Americans I encounter.

It may be the fact that we view it from the outside and don't have 24h continual coverage. I can get more news without the clutter of the entertainment segments which now dominates the media landscape. Unfortunately, I still have to sort thru Kim Kardashian news and know who most of the celebs in Scandinavia are..ugh..

I've always been fascinated by politics, have been politically active, and follow a number of high quality US news sources. I spend at least 3-4h per day reading online magazines such FP, The Atlantic, Slate, TNR, NI, in addition to reading FT and the Economist and 4-5 local sources. (Yes, I'm a news junkie.) I also lived in Florida for 4 years...


As a side note: Did you know that Obama had an op-ed in almost every opinion carrying news paper around the world today..?

My first choice for the presidency was Dennis Kucinich. My second was Hillary Clinton. I plan on voting again for President Obama. I think progressives who got annoyed that Obama didn't produce miracles in 2 lousy years and then blew the last election, shot us all in the foot. If you think about the years we've spent flushing ourselves down the toilet, they were asking for instant gratification. 4 more years without any focus on reelction and Obama has a chance to plow forward in the face of the Great-Obstructionist-Party, Special Interest propaganda and NO Campaign Reform.

This is why I am not a member of either party. When people ask me about my party I respond: "I'm in the ME party... population: Me."

LATimes has an article in todays paper that says that formerly apolitical pastors in states like Iowa backed by astute organizers and big donors are working with congregations for the 2012 election.  One pastor is quoted as saying that there is a concerted assualt on everything that he and his peers consider sacred and that they are preparing for battle. And the head of the Southern Baptist Convention says there is a congregational 'tea party'.


I'm with Pierre V. This mentality must be exposed to those who think rationally. And the rational must vote.

This is why it is pointless: Heather Henderson video "Circular Reasoning" funny. Length is .54

If you want to understand just how dangerous they are... maybe I should point out how a group of Dominionists rewrote the Pledge of Allegiance (apparently "under god" isn't enough for them) and the fact at the 1994 Reclaiming America for Christ conference, it was former vice president Dan Quayle who led the recitation of the "revised" pledge.

This is their pledge... the masks were off at the convention and you can see for yourselves the vision they have for America:

They recited this "revised" pledge to "the christian flag - a horrible theocratic version of the american flag with a white background, the blue square in the upper left corner, and a GOLD CROSS on the blue square instead of the stars on the American Flag.

"I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, and to the Savior, for whose Kingdom it stands. One Savior, crucified, risen and coming again, with life and liberty for all who believe."

With all due respect the Christian pledge has been said when they use the Christian flag which often sits to the left of the front area of Protestant churches with the American flag on the right side.  The Christian flag is white with a blue back ground with a red cross where  the white stars on the blue background would be on the Stars and stripes.  Been done for decades.   They also do the Pledge of Allegiance to the American flag.  Have been to a number of Christian/Protestant churches since I was a kid in the 50's and know this as fact.


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