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Permalink Reply by T A A on November 22, 2012 at 12:16am

Now consider BDSM, the heavy variety, people who've become so desensitised (and that's a great percentage of society, I'm not bashing BDSM) that we hurt ourselves to feel pain. Then there's people who just plain cut. Then there's violent couples who don't know anything other than to communicate through pain. Our senses have been so messed up with our obsession with pleasuring ourselves (not bashing masturbation, it's great) in the greater scheme of things. Then there's dulling chronic pain by creating controlled pain on another part of the body, a very common behaviour for pain sufferers.

Life in developed countries requires much less complexity. Food comes from the grocers, money comes from the boss, if you don't earn money the government supports you, if you do stupid ski jumps the doctors insist on healing you. Our life no longer has any difficulty, we no longer have biological selection, everyone's life is "precious" and "beautiful" and EVERYONE "must" live. But our evolutionary makeup, an accumulation of 4 million years of tried and tested mutations, works best in an environment where we are physically challenged and stimulated by nature. We have lost most of what it means to be a Homo sapiens, and we pay for it with medical costs.We're throwing away a biological life, and think we can buy happiness back with toys.

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Permalink Reply by Sagacious Hawk on November 22, 2012 at 11:53am

It seems you are totally focused on the biological aspect of life to the neglect of the social aspect of life that we have created. Our environments these days are not simply physical. There are also the societal environments we commonly find ourselves in, which encompasses everything from school to family to work to just plain enjoying life. This environment has completely reshaped our lives and has taken over for the selective pressures of evolution where our physical environment used to be king.

Behavior has been a much larger contributor into what genetic material gets passed on, if any, as civilization has progressed. Life is more filled with pitfalls. It's plenty dangerous driving down the road. I could be killed or maimed hours from now just driving to see family. I could have a house fire in the middle of the night and die from smoke inhalation. I could drink a lot of alcohol and do something stupid, like pass out in below freezing weather. There are plenty of actual physical risks in society. Then there are the behavioral choices we make everyday about how we interact with others, how we procure currency in our society which equates to our ability to survive, and how we treat our social group and therefore the kind of support we can receive in tough times. Life is far more complex in our developed state. We're not just thinking "watch out for snakes" we have to make nebulous choices that can have unfortunate and drastic consequences that we were never aware of.

Quite simply our environments are changing faster than we can physically adapt, but our ability to adapt our behavior is far quicker and more flexible.

Permalink Reply by T A A on November 25, 2012 at 5:00pm

@SH

Death is not a risk, you're just dead, there's no cost there. Pain is the risk, all the examples I was using were about pain reduction. Society's culture means nothing. If a child from one culture is removed and raised in another culture (in the first 2 years or so) it's like the first culture didn't exist. Culture is our imaginary filtered view of biology. In life there biology, physics, chemistry, math, most other fields of study of study are based on a bunch of constantly changing cultural assumptions, not reality.

But it's true our environment is changing faster than it ever has, and that is the fundamental human failure, attempting to change and control everything around us as such a quick pace that our bodies, our endocrine system, are simply not keeping up. Humanity is wilfully making itself sick through constantly evading reality. That is a very religious behaviour.

Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on November 21, 2012 at 11:26pm

TAA - RE: "you're by defintition refusing all that you consider non enjoyable, you refuse to accept death and injury and pain"

You say that like it's a bad thing --

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Permalink Reply by T A A on November 21, 2012 at 11:36pm

Yep, to me, imbalance is "bad". I don't like "good" and "bad", let's instead say detrimental to the biosphere.

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Permalink Reply by Sagacious Hawk on November 20, 2012 at 7:48pm

A quick interruption, just because I'd hate to see this go unanswered...

"Have you ever lived in countries that are more "libertarian" and laissez faire? Check out Somalia or the hills of Afghanistan if you are curious how well that form of government works."

That's Anarchy, Tribalism, and Theocracy. The most laissez-faire country would have to be the island nation of Singapore. For it's size, it's an economic powerhouse.

"Singapore has a highly developed and successful free-market economy. It enjoys a remarkably open and corruption-free environment, stable prices, and a per capita GDP higher than that of most developed countries. The economy depends heavily on exports, particularly in consumer electronics, information technology products, pharmaceuticals, and on a growing financial services sector. Real GDP growth averaged 8.6% between 2004 and 2007. The economy contracted 1.0% in 2009 as a result of the global financial crisis, but rebounded 14.8% in 2010 and 4.9% in 2011, on the strength of renewed exports. Over the longer term, the government hopes to establish a new growth path that focuses on raising productivity, which has sunk to a compound annual growth rate of just 1.8% in the last decade. Singapore has attracted major investments in pharmaceuticals and medical technology production and will continue efforts to establish Singapore as Southeast Asia's financial and high-tech hub." 

From: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sn...

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Permalink Reply by T A A on November 20, 2012 at 8:00pm

I think you're answering me. I've lived in 12 countries in three languages, doing pharmaceutical, agriculture, volunteer, etc. My social views tend towards Noam Chomsky, but that's just a general direction, my science views are bioregionalist, deep-green-species-egalitarian. But don't look for a book that says all that, there are none.

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Permalink Reply by Sagacious Hawk on November 20, 2012 at 9:24pm

100%? No, but you're example was vastly pointed in one direction and really wasn't applicable. I was just offering up a counter example and yes, Singapore is one of the most laissez-faire countries in the world and it does really well for itself and its people likewise do well.

And honestly, I don't see the connection between having many parties in government and not having a free market, but that's really all I'll say. I don't want to get too far off subject here.

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Permalink Reply by Nate Lundgren on November 20, 2012 at 9:43pm

I agree, my arguments were flawed so I deleted those posts. However, the way governments deal with transhumanism and technology is relevant and is worth exploring more. Thanks for keeping me honest.

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Permalink Reply by Sagacious Hawk on November 20, 2012 at 10:17pm

Word.

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Permalink Reply by Nate Lundgren on November 20, 2012 at 7:18pm

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Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on November 20, 2012 at 8:36pm

Breeding dogs is a good example of what artificial selection can do. I'll bet there's a pretty deep history of experimental dog breeding and inbred diseases that can show how inhumane it can be.

We've now bred dogs to suit our personal fashion statements and other fads.

Sorry, maybe I missed your point? I think I'm on track, here?

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