I was sitting in my room on the computer when I suddenly got an urge to "try something new" with another woman. After I had repented, flogged myself several times, and promised to offer a burnt offering for forgiveness to the All-Powerful, All-Omnipotent, and All-Merciful Ruler of the universe, I skipped back to my bed and said a long, remorseful prayer. Refreshing.


Just kidding :p But, on a more serious note, is this common among either gender? I might just be asking some really weird questions, but does anyone else ever have a moment when they're attracted to the same sex? Is it offensive to people who are naturally inclined to be gay to "experiment"? Personally, even when I was a christian, I didn't know how to deal with the whole issue. It seemed so snotty just to say something like "I love the sinner and not the sin" (picture a victorian noblewoman fanning herself and in a fake, high-pitched voice going "hahahahaha" right after saying this). Now I don't really care. People should be able to be with who they love regardless of who it turns out to be. But I never thought that I'd ever have those types of feelings.


Any other thoughts?

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Please, please, please take this post with a grain of salt. I'm not making any opinion here about my views on homosexuals, I'm just throwing something out there that I think is worth examining and talking about. 


Here's a thought - Throughout history, any society that became known for their homosexuality was pretty much immediately followed by destruction. The Greeks and Romans are obvious examples. When a society is no longer outside praying for rain, toiling in the fields and doing their outright best to survive, the start to get lazy and bored. When this happens to a society, sex becomes less of a machine for reproduction and more of an activity to be taken part in by one and all.
When this happens to sex, there are obviously going to be people who take it to new levels. Having sex with your, well, sex, is something that people will try and sooner or later you have groups popping up that prefer homosexual sex. In defense of the bible, which is not something I do often. This could be less of a "its not okay to have sex with men ever" commandment and more of a "if a lot of people are engaging in homosexual sex, you're probably not working hard enough" What do you guys think of that? 

Well, the Greeks engaged in homosexuality throughout their history as far as I know.  So, I think your assumptions may be flawed.  Also, there is evidence that homosexual behavior is extremely widespread throughout cultures even when persecuted.  For those who aren't born gay, it appears to be a safety valve for excess sexual tension for those who can't procreate for some reason such as being too young and/or in a segregated environment or who live in a society where polygamy is allowed--where some men never get heterosexual sex and many women don't get enough.  Sex isn't just about procreation.  In addition, if we limit it to procreation we are either going to have too many kids or a lot of sexually frustrated (and therefore unstable) people.


Secondarily, I think you are mistaking a symptom for a cause.  If your thesis were correct, then it is the society's very success that has caused the behavior.  The behavior itself is not the problem.  The problem is the way people react to such success.  Success does lead to a feeling of self-satisfaction followed by indolence and a sense of entitlement. 


Homosexuality is also a way to limit population growth in general.  There is statistical evidence that the incidence of homosexuality increases with the population.  In which case, if your thesis were correct, an increase in homosexual behavior could be nature's way of preventing a successful population to breeding itself into a Malthusian trap (or at least a way of slowing down that process).


Frankly, I think that is where we are at right now as a species.  We are headed for a Malthusian catastrophe.  Even if I thought the sex lives of others were my business--which I don't, I would say we should not discourage homosexuality under our current circumstances.

lol well I appreciate you being honest, even if I now feel dumber for having asked. But this is why I'm glad I have this website! That was actually a response given to me by a Christian friend when I asked him about Homosexuality, and I couldn't think of a good response to it. I decided to pose it as my own question just to leave out needless explaining, but you've kind of forced me into it haha.
But I think I've got it, Mo Trauen's answer was right along the lines of what I was looking for.

Wow.  Do you think if I tried to wash down a few hundred grams of salt this might start to make more sense?  Do you think same-sex attractions only occur in advanced civilizations?  Do you think Rome and Greece were 'destroyed' when public acknowledgment of these 'acts' became documented?


I'm sorry, but I am going to have to ask that you provide some evidence here.  I think even an introductory course in the applicable history would really really reshape your views.

Please read the reply I made to Judith.
Also, am I using that grain of salt thing incorrectly? I meant it to be something like "don't take what I'm saying here seriously". Even if I believed what I said 100%, do you really think ridicule is the best way to go about answering Christians when they make a not-so-scientific claim? This is exactly where the whole arrogant atheist notion comes from, and for the good of atheists everywhere maybe you should re-work your approach.

I caught the reply to Judith and I get your point.  I think you are hearing a lot more condemnation in my words than what was intended.  It can be hard not to come off as arrogant when someone postulates an unfounded claim about a very well analyzed subject. Simply indicating that the establishment of a working knowledge of the subject would allay any suspicion of the claim should not be interpreted as arrogant at all.  I know many people take it that way, but the only alternative is to start typing out all the relevant subject material, and I think it is very presumptuous on the part of the asker to expect that.


It might be better in the future to state up front that a theist has put this proposition to you and you are looking for material with which to reply - that way we can direct our incredulity of such ignorance at the source, rather than you, and perhaps be better informed of your desire for the relevant material.

It can be hard not to come off as arrogant when someone postulates an unfounded claim about a very well analyzed subject. I agree with that statement completely. Its incredibly hard. But you need to remember that if you're going to discuss religion with religious people. Every claim they make is an unfounded claim about a very well analyzed subject.

The best way to go about something like this is not to make quippy remarks, its about having a discussion with a fellow human being.

I really don't care to have a discussion about their religion because I honestly don't care what they believe in regard to invisible bogeymen.  Inevitably I am dragged into such discussions because they want me to either share in their belief or prove that 'science is right'.


I have little interest in proving that science is right because there are loads of materials available to anyone who wishes to investigate the matter - to which I direct their attention.  I also have no interest in adopting their bogeyman-belief unless they can provide me with some evidence that there is a basis for it.


The only time I become concerned with another person's bogeyman-belief is when it manifests in actions of intolerance, or worse.  Unfounded claims that homosexuality will bring about the destruction of humanity are not only unfounded, they are hateful and insulting to a large segment of the population.  I don't see why I should be expected reply in any less of a hateful and insulting manner, but I do - by asking the claimant to first substantiate their views with relevant information on the subject.


If, however, I were to reply in kind, I would likely point out that dogmatic assertions based on Bronze Age superstitions wielded by the illiterate have resulted in religious crusades of unspeakable atrocities and terrorism and they should be ashamed of themselves for being the willing cannon fodder of such affronts to rationality.

they should be ashamed of themselves for being the willing cannon fodder of such affronts to rationality.

So true..


"Throughout history, any society that became known for their homosexuality was pretty much immediately followed by destruction"  check the history books, and by that I mean those written by historians not something like The Bumper Book of Sodomites & Heathens published by Oklahoma Christian University Press. 

The Roman Empire did not collapse so much as decline, and it took some 400 years in all due to the disintegration of political, economic, and other social institutions as internal corruption and self serving personal enrichment became more important to leaders as the ruling elite became a class in themselves thus removing themselves from the people. The Roman military declined when military expenditure started growing exponentially beyond Romes ability to support it without borrowing.   (I am trying not to draw any parallels here with certain nations today).

We homosexuals can be blamed for many things, such as a taste for really bad club music mixes, getting men into waxing (ewwww), trashy leather wear, some very scary looking bull dykes and annoying Gay Pride Parades but blamimg us for the fall of Rome and Greece is really over egging it ! When the current american empire falls it will be due to the greed of its ruling politcal elite and ruling class as they become more and more disconnected and insulated from the poor people that form the vast majority of their population, not due to homosexuality. 

Please consider some of the good things we have brought to any society:

1. We adopt many of the kids hetro society discards. We consistently adopt more children with handicaps and chronic illness than hetro couples do.

2. Here in Holland gay marriage has a lower divorce rate than hetro so with our help the sharp rise in divorce rates has been slowed.

3. Can you men imagine what your porn would be like without lesbians sex acts in it to break the monotony of your bump and grind hetro sex ?

4. Per capita (in Europe at least) gay people are more active in politics and the environment, we have been instrumental in securing rights and laws protecting minorities of all kinds.

5. We practically fuel the expressive arts industries !

6. Without us the only sex lube available to you would be that horrid kunky hospital KY Jelly, with us you get strawberry flavored slippy lubes, tingly ones, some that pour, others that sooth - How cool is that !

7. Sex Toys, the gay community really brought these fun things into the light of day and got women designing them, now its socially acceptable for anyone to use them, and you men get much happier wives to boot as a result !

Tongue -in- cheek,

Judith vd R

After coming out of christianity, I still don't agree with homosexuality.  I once asked some pro-gay supporters about polygamy and incest, and got a flood of negative responses. It seems the 'tolerance' only goes so far. What's wrong with polygamy if the members are happy? What's wrong with incestual relationships as long as they're not reproducing? Or what about bestiality as long as the animal isn't complaining? There are many things humans can do, but that doesn't mean it should be encouraged (like the promotion of asphyxiation masturbation in a couple stupid indie films recently).

It seems the popularity of homosexuality contributes to the cause as well: you get more people that indulge in homosexuality who otherwise wouldn't - simply because of society telling them that they can do what they like and if they're thinking about it, they should just do it. Once day the same will be for other taboos like incest. The amount of people involved in incest will increase, and it will encourage others. Who knows, soon there'll be some precedent court case, and it'll become legal.


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