Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Ava Wilson on October 9, 2010 at 5:35pm

You bring up some pretty good points. I never thought about the convict idea. I certainly wouldn't let my daughter date a convict, but I wouldn't stop her from dating a black man if she loved him. I think the rarity of mixed marriages shows that my point of view is quite normal: races tend to be attracted within their own race, or not too far outside of it, which I think has to do with evolutionary / natural selection preferences, of wanting a partner who will produce offspring that won't look drastically different from you and will obviously carry your genes. Of course that's thinking pretty far into it, but I don't think my preference is abnormal consequentially. That being said, I also couldn't negotiate being married to an evangelistic Christian either, so what's wrong with what I said?

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Permalink Reply by Paula on October 9, 2010 at 5:50pm

Ava, nothing you said was wrong, as far as I can see. Some people just see the word "race" and immediately freak out. It's a simple as that. I like to talk about ANYTHING and I don't know why people are so terrified of saying what they really feel. Instead, they say what they think they SHOULD feel. Like I said, I never found Asian men physically attractive at all, but I don't think the race is inferior. It's just an "attraction" issue. I prefer the look of light-skinned, dark-haired (sort of hairy in general) men.

The people who are easily "offended" are the most narrow-minded people there are. Ava, don't worry about it. You said NOTHING wrong, and I totally agree with you because I feel the same way.

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Permalink Reply by Jon Heim on October 9, 2010 at 7:02pm

EVERYBODY is prejudiced.

I agree completely.

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Permalink Reply by Atheist Exile on October 11, 2010 at 4:26am

My father was openly racist, when he could afford to be. I can't count the number of jokes and innuendos I remember from him.

One day, after hearing yet another racist joke, I said:

"You know Dad, your wife is Japanese and I'm a half-breed Japanese-American. I've always wondered how you decided which race to draw the line at."

I never hear another racist comment from him.

In high school, my girlfriend's parents were even worse. They were descended from Europeans and definitely did not want their daughter dating anybody anything less than white. They never seemed to understand that their prejudice was an important factor in driving their daughter straight into my arms. No matter how hard they tried, we continued to see each other at will.

Their other (younger) daughter ended up dating nothing but blacks. These bigoted parents taught their children, by example, the hatefulness of racism and their children rebelled accordingly.

My girlfriend and I were intimately attached all through high school. We were sexually intimate from the age of 16. After high school, I went into the Air Force and lost contact with her. I, in fact, married a Southern Belle, from the panhandle region (Panama City) of Florida (where I was stationed).

That marriage didn't last long: I was 19 and she was 17 when we got married.

Years later, I was living in Waikiki, Hawaii, working (barely surviving) as a pedicab driver. One day, out of the blue, there was my girlfriend's parents. They were on vacation . . . and had their daughters with them. They made the mistake of telling their daughters about me. They came looking for me and found me on Kalakaua Ave.

Pam (that's her name) and I had a second honeymoon, so to speak . . . in the room adjoining her parents' room. LoL. They hated it but we were, by then, adults.

I wouldn't be surprised if Pam's parents still haven't learned what effects their prejudice had on their daughters. They were really committed to their prejudices.

This might be more than you wanted to know but screw it. It was great reminiscing.

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Permalink Reply by Paula on October 9, 2010 at 1:30pm

Some men are not interested in a sexual relationship with very fat women no matter how nice the women may be. The men would simply not find them sexually attractive. Are those men prejudiced against fat women? No. Some white men are very attracted to Asian women. Are those men being racist against white women? No. Some people are attracted to their own race. Are they being racists against anyone outside their race? No. I personally never saw an Asian man that seemed sexually attractive to me, but that does not mean I "hate" Asian men, just because I was not physically attracted to them.

Our society is paralyzed by political correctness since it has been shoved down our throats for so long. Many people have a knee-jerkreaction to ANY word that has to do with race. I'm getting pretty sick of it myself. Just say what you feel, and try to be polite. That's all you need to do. Do not walk on egg shells and worry all the time about "offending" people. It's really VERY SIMPLE.

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Permalink Reply by Ava Wilson on October 9, 2010 at 5:38pm

I think I accomplished this as far as most of you are concerned. Just wanted to say, 'paralyzed' is definitely the right word for it. Nice observation. I think I handle what I say with enough diplomacy that to most, I get my opinions across smoothly without being offensive. I have never had a black person even blink an eye at my preference before. This is honestly the first instance I've ever offended somebody to such an extent.

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Permalink Reply by Atheist Exile on October 9, 2010 at 10:44pm

Hi Paula,

If prejudice is bias, then any aversion against any human characteristic is a prejudice. The bias against fat women/men/both prevents people from fully experiencing those people as surely as does racial bias. By extension, any preference for any human characteristic implies a bias against those without that human characteristic.

Political correctitude has arrested human honesty in the name of equality. We all have our prejudices but sometimes they go too far. That's what our equal rights and anti-discrimination laws are for.

It's okay to be prejudiced. Denying your prejudices compromises your personal integrity and makes it harder to learn from and overcome those prejudices. You can't fix what you deny exists.

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Permalink Reply by Matt Coulthurst on October 10, 2010 at 6:39pm

What?! That's Bodypartism! How dare you. :P

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Permalink Reply by Dan on October 9, 2010 at 1:56pm

What does someone's free thought have to do with Think Atheist as a whole??

And why should everyone have to think like you?

I have seen many things on this site that i don't agree with, that's one of the things I love about it. We are a group of very different people. The only thing many of us have in common is the lack of belief in a deity.

If you're looking for people who think only as you do, you're going to to have to create one and start brainwashing people.

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Permalink Reply by Ava Wilson on October 9, 2010 at 5:27pm

How is that comment in any way racist? Not to mention, one person's sexual preferences can keep you from logging into a website? If you're so utterly offended by my not being attracted to dark skin, maybe I should be offended if you don't like to have sex with women, or with men who are over a thousand pounds. I think you're too sensitive and have no grasp of what racism is. Racism means you feel one race is superior to another. I in no way think any race is superior to any other race-- I'm Native American myself, like I said-- I only expressed a *sexual preference*, meaning the limited interaction only begins in intimacy and has no affect on my business or friendships with people of color. In that, I treat people of color absolutely no different than white or Asian or Latin-American people. What I said *in no way* constitutes as racism, only an expression of sexual preference.

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Permalink Reply by Galen on October 9, 2010 at 6:41pm

There's nothing racist about liking or disliking physical features from an aesthetic point of view. I typically don't find black women attractive (though there have certainly been some attractive black women I've known!). It's not because I dislike black people, it's simply because I don't typically find dark skin to be attractive. Well, not very dark skin anyway. I do find hispanic women and mixed-race women to be attractive. In fact, I think mixed girls (black and white mixed) are VERY attractive most of the time. An olive skin complexion is something I find attractive too. I can also recall being very enamored with a young Phillipino girl when I was younger, and that's pretty dark, lol.

So, while I generally prefer white (or "tanned" looking) women over black women, that's not to say that I've never found a black woman attractive. It's just that I have a personal preference and it has to do solely with physical appearance, not with race, per se. It's analogous to liking brunettes over blondes or vice versa.

I think that maybe in this day and age, we've become so sensitive about racism that we've extended the definition to be too generalized and broad. Now suddenly, as a white male, if I don't just ADORE everything "black" then I'm a racist. Well, fuck that noise. I don't automatically like a woman just because she's black and that's not racist. I don't like some parts of "black culture" and that's not racist. On the inverse, I'd also point out that I don't like some parts of "white culture" and I don't automatically think a woman is attractive just because she's white, and no, these things don't make me racist against whites either.

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Permalink Reply by Misty: Baytheist Living! on October 9, 2010 at 7:18pm

Nancy,
I was really hoping that I would be able to waltz in here and tell you that you were dead right. I really, really wanted to be able to come into this discussion and defend your idea as a fair, just, thoughtful one.
But it isn't.
In fact, it has none of the qualities that would even make it redeemable as a passing thought.
For starters, I think your topic title is what used to be called yellow journalism. It's borderline slanderous to the Think Atheist site name, and overly sensational in the effort to gain attention. Since I personally believe that there is a fine line between theatrics and liability, I'll defend your right to post such a topic title, but it does make me lose a little respect for you. Let me be very specific as to why. Please understand I'm taking the time to write this because I rather like you. We've had some interesting discussions about health and weight and diet.
If you were some troll or jerk I didn't give a thought about, I'd stay silent. But because I like you, I want you to know why I'm offended over all, and by your post title especially.
It isn't because I think you are a drama whore (Though that is admittedly the first thought that pops to mind when I see a title like that) But I DO think you look too hard for a reason to be offended. That's your right as a person, and if that's the type of life you are content to lead then by all means, do it happily. However, when you start trying to paint other people with words like 'racist' and 'bigot' there is a clear need to address these issues. Since you did it in public, you ought to expect the rebuttal to be public as well. I'm sorry in advance if you are feeling a little ganged up upon. Reading the responses to this post, it doesn't seem like too many people agree with you. That isn't always a bad thing, though. That's how we evolve and learn and form our opinions of the world around us. We get challenged. We get shot down. It's what we do after that matters.
Are you going to stomp off in a huff and never come back because people don't agree with you? Or are you going to be an adult, and be mature and say "Well guys, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm so glad we all enjoy a community where we can discuss things, even scary things... and do it respectfully enough that at the end of the day, it's ok to agree to disagree." There is also this third option, which is my personal favorite. It's where you take a look at the reason why basically everyone is set against you and sprinkle in a little self reflection. It's admirable to stand up for an unpopular decision, but in my experience, it's usually the crazy person that is sure of their own sanity but doubts the sanity of everyone else around them. Unpopular ideas are generally unpopular for good reason, but I digress....
Secondly, when you take someone's sexual preference and label it as racist, you are making a lot of disgusting people in white hoods look much more innocent than they really were. (I'll get back to this.) If you tell people that it is racist to sexually like one thing but not another, then you are either 1) insinuating that humans have a choice in who they find sexually attractive, which is insulting to the gay and lesbian world or 2) admitting that sexual preference isn't a choice and is simply the way you are born. So which is it, Nancy? Are all gay men willful queers who can change their impulses with prayer and counselling, or are you vilifying someone for the way they are born? Because if you are vilifying someone for the way they are born..for something that isn't a choice....then you are the bigot.

So back to the men in white hoods.
Those guys are racist. They meet every definition of the word. They do not have friends of other races. They think themselves superior. They believe in human and civil rights abuse. When you take these traits and compare them to something pretty damn meaningless, such as who you like to fantasize about in the shower, you are basically saying that the brutality and degradation and violence and horrors experienced by a race of people is on par with being turned on by red hair or brown. See, that's bad, because it's really insulting.
You have pretty much just trivialized one of the worst lessons in human history, and you've done it by telling another adult who she should be attracted to. So you've insulted minorities that have had to live through oppression by attempting to regulate one of the most personal freedoms an individual can have.....who they share their body with.
That's bullshit, pure and simple.
Then there is this last reason why I felt the need to post here.
It's pretty anecdotal, so it isn't a structured argument. It's just an experience I'd like to share.
I was once called racists in public, here on this site. It was pretty bullshit, too. First of all because we were talking about nationalities, not races. Secondly because um...I'm not racist. I don't bite my tongue when it comes to calling people out for saying or doing something stupid, but that's because saying or doing something stupid is a CHOICE. Much like the whole convict argument, I'm going to hereby state that YES. YOU CAN FORM AN OPINION OF SOMEONE BASED ON THEIR ACTIONS. Why is that so novel? Holy fuck, we've been doing it for millions of years as a way of survival. We do it every day in our lives. It's part of having street smarts. It's part of assimilating all variables before coming to a conclusion. It's part of interacting with other humans. It is not bigoted of me to refuse to hire a convict in my daycare, it's a prudent measure that my customers desire and expect of me. It is my responsibility as a day care owner to see a history of violence in a person and decide that their actions indicate a personality type I'm not interested in associating with.
But it's not ok to refuse to hire a black person without a criminal history. It's not ok to discriminate against someone based in an issue they have no control over.
And guess what? Having a sexual preference one way or another isn't something we can control.
And personally?
I'm not generally not sexually attracted to black men. I love brown eyed boys. I love dark haired boys. I love tanned boys and blue eyed boys and blond boys and fuck it... I even like a couple of girls.
But there are very few black boys that turn me on.
Am I a racist, too?
And if you say yes, then answer me this:
I've NEVER been turned on by someone with a 'ginger' complexion.
I mean, there are admittedly a few handsome black brothers that have got my panties wet, but not very many.
However, I've NEVER been even the least bit attracted to carrot tops.
...and that's a specific set of traits used to describe somebody. It's recessive genetics. It's....biologically closer to being a race than claiming a Mexican or American race.

So, as a brief recap:
I'll defend your right to post a title like this, but as a moderator of Think Atheist and quite frankly personally? I'm offended that you would go to such lengths as using wordplay to associate a website of free thought with racism.
I like you, but I don't agree with you. I hope that won't effect our continued friendship.
I think it's about as realistic to compare not getting turned on by black features to racism as it is to compare the Holocaust to serving bacon in a restaurant.
I think that it's an insult to gays and lesbians to try and dictate who or what any grown person should be sexually attracted to, because it means all the oppression, violence and hatred they've faced in their life is something they willingly put themselves and their family through.
The bottom line is that telling someone what races they should or shouldn't be attracted to is way more of an intellectual crime than simply being born....not attracted to certain features.

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