The value of anything is established by its properties.  If values aren't really arbitrary, then there is an absolute morality.  The rest of this is trying to explain why values can't be arbitrary, they can only be misunderstood as arbitrary.  

This thread is an argument that order is the basis of all concepts.  Order is very rigid, so when you build a concept like a moral system on it, like all concepts should be built, it is going to lead to absolute results. Morality is based on values, and the only way to justify morality is to prove your values are accurate.  My argument is that values aren't arbitrary, thus there is an absolute morality.

Original post below:

Many atheists shy away from absolute morality because it sounds religious.  I argue that there has to be an absolute morality because the universe is absolute.  This may seem wrong as there are many subjective things.  I am contending that this isn't true because subjectivity resides on the conceptual level and like disorder and change is not a part of actual existence, but rather merely descriptive.  Absolute morality has to exist because the base foundation for morality is order, which enables it to have structure as a social concept.  This means that even as a concept, it has to have an absolute and most perfect form as a social concept.  

I have been working on this for a while, and I think I am nearing completion, but I am wondering what faults may be found with this line of thought...  I have had to return to the drawing board to correct my errors a few times already.

This below is an addendum:

What I am contending is that once morality is conceived as a concept, the nature of order upon which any concept is structured necessitates a most perfect form.

Individual perception causes humans to see the concept with innaccuracy in contrast to the order with which the concept maintains structure in conceptual reality.  This creates subjectivity.

But where I am really going with this is that order is the base functional principle of any structure in the universe.  

At the very foundation of the level of actuality lies order. Without order, molecules neither form nor bind. Order enables structure, which in turn enables every other level of existence. Order permeates every level of existence as its foundation, including anything that exists on the conceptual level. For this reason, structural order serves as the archetypal basis that justifies having a moral system.

Disorder is mistaken as coexisting with order, but it exists on the conceptual level only and is a name given to an observation of change. It is not a counterpart to order.  That means disorder is not actual.  It is conceptual.

These things tie together to start to point out that best action can be established on the basis of the order of the universe, and the lack of actuality of disorder which would be its only challenger.

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Rhetorics is most useful in obfuscation. Case in point-William Lane Craig's debates.

I recently heard him say in one of his podcasted teaching classes, to a group of avid students, that he likes to think of God as having existed "Sans" time. 'Sans' being French for 'without'. So, why not just say "without"? Because he's a skilled rhetorician, and obfuscation is his game. Listen to his teaching classes, especially the Q&A, where it is obvious his students have totally not gotten what he's said, but they are awed by his profundity. His rhetoric gains value in inverse proportion to its clarity. He's good, I'll give him that. But he's still wrong.

sorry Heather Spoonheim, I just can't help myself. I will argue with the walls. Just be glad you don't have to live with me.

I love it when people throw in French words just to be pretentious!  To get back and them I just continue the conversation in French, :D


Calisse de tabarnak, ostie!

That's easy for YOU to say --!

Definition of MERDE

sometimes vulgar


Origin of MERDE

French, from Old French, from Latin merda; perhaps akin to Lithuanian smirdėt - to stink
First Known Use: 1907

Oh, you're going to hate me.

I won't argue with your def. of value, but it does have other definitions-it's a verb, and a noun after all.....but I disagree with the other assertions. I can value and have values based on utter lies and misapprehensions, both knowingly and unknowingly. People do all the time! You may not hold the same values, and think they're nutty, but there they are all the same.

Love also has a whole lot of definitions, the love I have for my dogs is profound, but is it based on their 'worth'? I love them more than people I don't know, but are they 'worth' more than the average 3 year old? I dunno. Even  if you ask if they are worth more to me, I hesitate, but I sure love them more than any 3 year old. And peoples love of their God, or prophet grows despite the truth.....surely we agree here. So, I say love happens, truth be damned. Love is emotional, and truth or no, it has whatever meaning (even value!) we say it does. The two are not necessarily relevant to each other.

Take that!


Yes, what kind of love are we talking about? 

The truest kind of love, like that of a good parent for their child?

The selfish love we call "romantic love" which bears a lot of resemblance to obsession and compulsion?

The love of a stamp collector for stamps?

If you were to list a dozen or so discrete examples like the above, you might find it hard to locate the core concept uniting them all.

Well David Buss calls love an irrational preference.  I know you "can" value, but it is a lot better to love your dog, than it is to love a grain of sand.  You can't love your dog without a concept of truth, otherwise you wouldn't know what your dog is and what the sand is.  That is what I mean by misdirected.  You can have truth without love.  You can't have love without truth. Honestly, though, I don't think love is necessary to do the right thing. 

If the foundation of morality is love, and love is an irrational emotion (I'm thinking of abused wives and beaten children who love their parents), what does that say about our morals?



I've decided I'm going to try and throw in my lot with Karen Armstrong and her Charter for Compassion.  I feel I've got exactly what she's looking for. 

Your first sentence is incorrect. The 'value' of something isn't the product of its properties, it's a subjective opinion each of us places on that something based on how we percieve it, regardless of its innate properties.

what's the value of the bible? Depends on who you ask, and what they think about it. What's the value of a sandwich? Depends on how hungry you are. What's the value of a starving African child? Depends on where you live and a thousand other things.

Value is subjective and has little to do with the properties of the subject, and lots to do with the properties of the valuer.


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