Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Walter Maki on June 17, 2011 at 8:53am

That is a very interesting question Derek. What would the evidence look like? Maybe the spontaneous healing of an amputee!? An instantaneous and simultaneous extinguishing of all the wildland fires in Arizona (where I live)!? But since nothing of this kind has happened then I don't see any proof that can't be ruled out scientifically.

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Permalink Reply by Derek on June 17, 2011 at 9:24am

Would a spontaneous healing of an amputee be good evidence of God? Would that be enough? This got me thinking, in a way it's a non-starter because if we don't know what evidence for God is then maybe there cannot be such a thing.

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Permalink Reply by Daniel on June 17, 2011 at 9:32am

If someone's arm spontaneously fixed itself in a second I would absolutely have to consider the existence of god or some omnipotent being.

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Permalink Reply by Apple on June 17, 2011 at 9:40am

This is actually similar to a common theist argument that the reason atheists don't believe in their particular god isn't because it's rational, but rather that they simply refuse to show proofs.  They say that if God healed someone on the spot, atheists wouldn't believe, or that if God spoke to a crowd of people, they wouldn't believe.  In other words, atheists are just stubborn and closed minded.

 

Now of course I reject that theistic argument, but it is quite interesting to consider what would be good "proof."  I agree that the classical Christian God is logically impossible and cannot exist.  However, proof for other gods would be fairly easy.  Zeus, for example, could simply fly down from Mt. Olympus.  I think that if he never aged, was invincible and able to throw lightning blots around, and everyone could see this, that would be proof enough for me that he existed.  But that is a different kind of god entirely from the one that plagues our politics today.

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Permalink Reply by Steve on June 17, 2011 at 11:51am

If I had proof, I'd certainly believe that the god the existed. Worshiping it is another matter entirely. He'd still be a psychopathic, narcissistic monster

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Permalink Reply by Andrew Hess on June 18, 2011 at 3:18pm

You can't really know that. Your assessment is fair if the god is the Abrahamic god, but that isn't a foregone conclusion.

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Permalink Reply by Chris on June 17, 2011 at 10:07am

I suppose my answer to this is that if a god existed and needed me to know it existed it could figure out a way to be known. The idea that I refuse to believe no matter what is a fine debating tool - as long as the debate is for an audience. But it reduces the god to a helpless buffoon who keeps accidentally creating works that are explained sufficiently without reference to it. I have thought, in my more agnosticy moments, that if there were a god that being should be very upset that it's earthly representatives make it look so impossibly shitty.

 

And that is the crux of the issue. The people arguing for a god are so pathetically bad at it. That is not the god's fault per se, but if it does exist and has this little control over it's street team, well, Christ; does it even deserve worship? Does it even want it? Again, in supposition for stories I am never going to write I have imagined a scientific god who, having touched off and cultivated a universe wherein life was a real possibility, finds that on Earth not only does it spark, but flourish. And even attain sentience in a meaningful way. This presents a moral dilemma for the god, as now it feels a responsibility for the life it fostered, and it tries to impart ideals to the sentient beings in the hopes that they will not wipe themselves out. But they keep figuring out a way to fuck it up with their own versions of these ideals and make each other miserable. The scientist god, realizing his role infected his experiment, resolves to leave it alone and let the chips fall where they may but, sadly, has already infected the results and can now only watch in sadness as the precious sentience withers under it's own god given folly.

 

Point being, if there is evidence for a god, the believers I am aware of have managed to taint it so heavily with their own egos and lusts how would I even recognize it? And if the universe IS the evidence, that god is so subtle as to render any notion of a human figuring it out as absurd on it's face. In all instances it seems more likely that humans created gods and have to spend the rest of time reverse engineering their own stories.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Reardon on June 17, 2011 at 10:16am

Simple, he would just change our brains to know that he exists.

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Permalink Reply by Nelson on June 17, 2011 at 11:16am

it depends on what you would take to be evidence.

i think if you thought about it for even just a little while you'd find that you'd have to conclude that an inference to the best explanation sort of case could be made for the existence of god.

for instance, let's say that we tested intercessory prayer and found that it worked. let's say that we tested the rate of success at Catholic hospitals and found it better than that of a secular hospital. let's say that we found that people who go to church on a regular basis have fewer miscarriages. this evidence might, taken together, infer that the best explanation was that god exists.

so while i agree that we're unlikely to find direct evidence (and i agree again because i don't even know what that would look like), it's not true that we could never have a cumulative case made on circumstantial evidence along the lines of a inference to the best explanation.

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Permalink Reply by Sophie on June 17, 2011 at 11:31am

Good written response. I feel like I need to break out my red pen and circle all the un cap's... Where are your capitol letters? Is your shift and caps lock key broken? Don't make me break out the red pen.

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Permalink Reply by Nelson on June 17, 2011 at 11:37am

LOL. Are you a teacher Sophie? I'll capitalize my letters just for you.

My shift key isn't broken. It's just always been my habit when typing on the internet to not bother with capitals. I've done it for years and years.

By the way Miss Sophie, "capitol letters"? What are those? Letters on the side of a building housing a legislative body? :P :) Haha!

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Permalink Reply by Sophie on June 17, 2011 at 11:43am

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