Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on August 20, 2012 at 12:16am

Nope that's about it - just try and think back to your sex life --

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Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on August 20, 2012 at 1:48pm

Archaeopteryx - is this really a game? I know it can be sometimes, but it's not always. If I do something like that, I don't spend time revelling and glorying in "what a good boy I am". That's just unseemly, and kind of spoils things. It can be a temptation, and I have done it, but it makes me look like an immature dickhead, so I really try not to, and now I don't. That's just the ego jerking off. I like the Buddhist ideal where the ego doesn't get involved.

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Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on August 20, 2012 at 2:10pm

Simon - I'm not saying we strut about, high-fiving, I'm saying that inside, we feel that our innate goodness has been reinforced by our altruistic action. While that may sound a little short of noble, and most of us would like to feel we have nobility, I believe in taking a realistic look at human nature, and it is rarely noble, no matter how much we might wish it to be. And I certainly consider myself in that category as well.

I use the word, "game," only to relate the behavior I described to Eric Berne's book, Games People Play, and to those who have read it or may in the future. In his book, Berne considers a game to be a behavior, the ultimate goal of which is other than what the action may indicate it to be, and I feel that most altruistic behavior qualifies for that description.

Case in point - would you be more likely to perform an identical action to a person with an identical need, if you thought that that person was going to be ungrateful for your effort, or for a person who was going to thank - and thereby praise - you for your help?

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Permalink Reply by Unseen on August 20, 2012 at 2:42pm

So, being a good father who wants to protect and provide for his children, while altruistic on the surface, underneath it's just craven naked selfishness?

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Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on August 20, 2012 at 3:01pm

It's,

• Wanting to feel you're a good person
• Wanting to feel you're a good father
• Wanting to be seen by your children as a good person
• Wanting to be seen by your children as a good Father
• Wanting to live up to the teachings of your parents
• Wanting to live up to the expectations of friends, neighbors and relatives
• Wanting to please your wife
• Wanting to live vicariously through the youth and accomplishments of your children
• Wanting to see your genetic line continue
• Wanting that tax break from the IRS

The list could go on, depending on the individual.

I'm not sure just how craven those things are, unless you mean Wes --

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Permalink Reply by Unseen on August 20, 2012 at 3:10pm

Not one mention of, or amounting to, "out of love" for another person?

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Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on August 20, 2012 at 4:14pm

First, I said the list could go on - feel free to add any others you wish.

Secondly, how long would you continue to love someone who doesn't love you back, and if you do continue, is it really love, or merely an obsession? And if one doesn't continue to love someone who doesn't return their love, couldn't it be said that that love was based on a self-centered desire to have the love returned, and withdrawn when it isn't?

In Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, he places Health and Safety as being the first need in the hierarchy, meaning that until all health and safety needs are fulfilled, it is impossible for one to ascend to a higher need level. To feel loved, could well be considered as part of one's health - emotional health. Therefore, the satisfaction of that need would be in one's own best interests, thereby qualifying as, under the surface, a self-serving act, as would be loving someone with the expectation that we would be compensated by return love.

In essence, we do it because it makes us feel good.

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Permalink Reply by Unseen on August 20, 2012 at 5:40pm

Why presume it's someone who doesn't love one back? (BTW, people DO love people who don't love them back. They're called parents. Only when kids grow up to adulthood do they truly love their parents back. Before that it's either mindless dependence or outright hostility. Most parents of teens can relate to that.)

Romantic love IS obsession, not love.

Gee Maslow said something. Should I believe it because Maslow said it or did he conjure up a proof of some sort?

Finally, is doing something out of love AND because it feels good a mutual exclusivity?

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Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on August 20, 2012 at 6:55pm

RE: "Only when kids grow up to adulthood do they truly love their parents back." - that may well have been YOU'RE experience, but that doesn't mean it's a universal phenomenon.

RE: "Romantic love IS obsession, not love." - your opinion, see above.

RE: "Should I believe it because Maslow said it or did he conjure up a proof of some sort?" - not at all, you should research his work, it will give you something to do and possibly keep you off the streets.

RE: "Finally, is doing something out of love AND because it feels good a mutual exclusivity?" - how can two identical things, be mutually exclusive?

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Permalink Reply by Unseen on August 20, 2012 at 11:39pm

RE: "Finally, is doing something out of love AND because it feels good a mutual exclusivity?" - how can two identical things, be mutually exclusive?

Love for someone else and love for oneself are not identical. Congruent sometimes, perhaps, but not identical.

Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on August 21, 2012 at 12:23am

So now we're introducing love for one's self into the conversation, out of the blue.

I don't personally love myself - I like myself, I respect myself, I hold myself in high regard, but the feeling I know as love doesn't even occur to me when I'm thinking of myself.

You, on the other hand, probably kiss every body part you can reach.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on August 21, 2012 at 12:36am

@arch

You, on the other hand, probably kiss every body part you can reach.

I've noticed that you tend to personalize almost all of our discussions in a way obviously intended to embarrass me. I don't embarrass easily (or at all), but I'm curious about the psychology behind it. Jealousy? contempt? hatred? What gives? Do you want to meet in the schoolyard after school, or what? LOL

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