So recently there was an email sent out (by my father, to the rest of the family) and it was basically saying that all Democrats hate god and blah blah blah, nation dying blah blah blah, here are some bible verses. After some intense discussion where most of my family shat on my beliefs and called me stupid, I started a discussion with my father asking him to not include me on these types of emails in the future. He then said that I need to change my ways and I emailed him back instances where religion has failed and should not be involved in government. This was his response:
I DID find it especially interesting that his OWN dad was an atheist. I'll bet there's an interesting story there, and I can't help wondering what part that may have played in your dad's adopting religion --
Well, ok - you're not a horrible person. You may need to remind your father that although you remain his daughter, you are also now an adult with your own thoughts and feelings and logic. How else would have he wanted to raise his child?
Focusing in on just that last paragraph, it sounds like your dad is saying - you get to choose, but so do I. Your dad seems to truly believe that you are headed for disaster. While we here know that choosing reason does not lead to doom and gloom, many of us have to accept that it is not so easy for our families to understand this. I really can't fault a father for wanting to save his daughter the pain of what he believes will come.
Now, this doesn't mean that you should just sit back and yield or silently agree, but you may want to try changing tactics. I always remind myself to first seek to understand. Do you know why your dad is sending you these emails? Does he think that you don't understand something, or that more information will change your mind? Ask him, listen (if you feel yourself getting agitated, politely take a break to grab some water, and return when calm), and ask questions to make sure you understand his side of things. He spoke to you about his dad - what did he do that he felt showed his father honor and respect (it obviously wasn't copying his beliefs without question)? Once you understand him better, you'll be able to figure out how to communicate with him more effectively.
Some of us walk a fine line in our families, and it's takes a while to figure out how to walk it without falling. I'm still working on that one with my father, but it gets better every time.
Side note: Things in your family seem more contentious than in mine, so I completely understand why they don't know. I just know that my family didn't really stop trying to appeal to me by bringing up god and judgment until after I "came out" and let them know that I'm an atheist (I had to clearly draw the line in the sand). I'm not saying to come out if you don't feel it's safe, but just keep in mind that you'll probably hear this sort of pleading for some time.
Funny to think that I am the same age as your father, but with a rather different spin on 'reality'.
You might remember a little church history. The Inquisition, Luther's racism, Biblical support/unsupport of racism and slavery, Church validation of the Nazis, Church support of feudal kings, supression of sciences, yadayada. Your father's version of Christianity is rather new and most likely did not exist at the beginning of the republic!
What I find funny is that the 'decay' of civilization and culture has been be-moaned atleast since about 2200bc. If memory serves, atleast a few greek philosophers showed concern about the next generation! Sadly, as with most predictions, they do not always show much success with the call!
Looking at my own experiences with religion, I think your father and many others of his persuation, see through a lense of their ignorace. I find myself concerned with 'end of times/days' perceptions, but also know that change does not always favor the generation that experiences it.
If your father had it his way, I expect that he would love you to knell and pray at his idol, marginalize groups of people that he finds objectional, suppress ideas that do not jive with his simplistic world view, and maybe place Oral Roberts into the pantheon of US presidents.
We do seem to be grasping at straws as a culture at times. The desire to return to some romantic simple time, demands that we ignore the importand details that would not support even our rather modern ideas of religion. I do wonder how well your father would fair, if dumped into the era of Christ. Would he be among the happy few to break bread with the 'man', or tied to a tree and wiped for disrespect, or considered influenced by a demon for his ideas?
It is unclear how well the cultural outlyers were treated then. There is some indication from history, that there were many traveling teachers at the time of Christ and before. Since your father has been socialized into one metaphysical commitment, such a trip to the past might have been educational. Sadly such an experiment will not been done any time soon.
I suggest that you keep to your guns, but this does not demand that you make premature commitments to atheism or theism. I think the greatest threat to honesty is premature metaphysical commitments. I might have docked my little boat to the port of atheism, but maybe I am just waiting for the next great wind to blow or when the local catch gets thin. I think the human mind is bigger than an 'ism' can contain, but many of our fellow travelers confuse comfort and simple certainty, with the 'truth'.
@James - it's Halloween, I thought you might enjoy this:
"What does the ghost of a mathematician say?"
"Boo - lean!"
Khalil Gibran said that your children are living arrows that you, the bow, send down the path of Life - you aim as best you can, but once you've released the arrow, your control of its flight ends.
Your Dad needs to understand that if he aimed well, you'll be just fine.
I could write a book taking your father's response apart, but it's been done and it's all out there. So just a note:
Regarding how horrible a person you are. At the very worst you're a critical thinker. That's a good thing, we reward that, we even set up this whole system in college where that is basically all we do. If being inquisitive to the point of critique was immoral then prisons would be filled with cultural critics and philosophers.
And, as a side note because I couldn't ignore this: "You cite the Middle Eastern countries. Let’s take a look at countries based on non-religion such as China or Communist Russia." I have been to the Middle East, and I have been to China, and believe me when I say China wins, every time.
Also maybe bring up how most of the continent of Europe consistently votes into office politicians that would be demonized as "socialists" in the US (even the conservative ones), yet somehow continues to prosper, grow, expand social equality, and produce some of the happiest and safest societies in the world...
Not that everything is great in Europe; the point simply being that liberal politics don't corrode a society. It's pathetic how many people think they do, nowadays. Would you like to return to the "freedom" of the days when there were no child labor laws or civil rights for minorities?
Here is my two cents.
Focus on persuading your father to accept an arrangement where you both avoid religion and politics in your email and everyday conversation. Emphasize that your relationship with him is important to you, and that you propose this out of concern that the resulting discord otherwise saddens and hurts you, and is harmful the relationship between you. Tell him the family bond is more important than matters of churches and governments.
Here's the most important part. If he insists on starting these conversations anyway, then go ahead and have them. But each time, remind him how he's insisting, express your concern for the relationship between you, and tell him you'd prefer to avoid these subjects in the future for that sake.
Then, have at it. His cherished beliefs are fair game by his own doing. Respond to what he says. Make absolutely sure you never attack him personally. Instead, put all your effort into refuting any fundamentalist positions he puts forth, whether religious or political. Prepare for it. Make it your hobby. Read up on common religious arguments and fallacies. Be a skilled debater. Do your homework. Stick with facts and logic. Cite your sources of information. Ask him to provide his sources and to be specific. Above all, read up on the Nazis, as you can be sure he'll make lots of feeble and fact-free comparisons between your views and theirs.
Sooner or later, after he's taken a few intellectual beatings, or dished out a few emotional ones to you himself, you'll have laid the groundwork for one of two things. He'll either accept your offer to avoid the subject, or you'll have good reason to tell him you'd rather delete his email unread, or withdraw from an in-person conversation and go home.
This approach might take years to fall into place, and may involve a few more damaging and hurtful exchanges, but in my similar experiences with hyper-religious family, it works eventually.
HONESTLY, you ask? Of course you aren't "horrible." What you are, unlike your father, is intelligent. The very fact that he justifies everything he purports to believe by referring to an ancient black book of dubious authorship is proof that he is not a thinker, but a follower, no matter how eloquently he expresses his beliefs. Please, Amanda, keep thinking! To surrender that right and privilege is to deny your humanity.
My only problem with you is the apparent lack of courage implied by your not proudly proclaiming that you are an atheist - a person who guides her life, not by supplication to supernatural deities, but by science and reason. In my 77 years of existence, I have encountered uncounted entreaties and objections from parents, relatives, friends, and others who tried to shame me into believing the nonsense they believed. NOT ONCE did it occur to me to replace reason with superstition. THAT really would have made me ashamed. I am unambiguously proud to be an atheist, and IF that's what you are, so should YOU be proud to embrace it.
'To thy own self be true'.
Your willingness to pursue a path contrary to family and much of culture, while unsettling, is seen by many intellectuals as, the way to enlightenment. Sadly, I am not yet convinced that atheism is on that path, but it has been my experience, that if there is a reality, thet deep experience should offer a glimpse of it.
Your father, while commited to a position you find divergent from your own, still holds some things as sacred. These might only be perceived darkly, or measured with blunt tools, but could offer you both a ground on which to stand. Sadly, I have not always been able to find these with a shared clarity..;p(.
I wish you well. Mind /soul building is very hard work....
It's obvious, Amanda, that your father loves you very much, but it is equally obvious that like many Americans,, he's bought into the whole Judeo-Christian religion, written by men thousands of years ago, who weren't even aware that the earth was round.
As it says in the comical Christmas Carol I'll be posting in a couple of months, "It's better to be loved than to make a point."
I'd keep my letters friendly and loving and stay completely away from the subject, with one exception - if he includes a biblical quotation in his letter, without any further comment, in your return letter to him, include a quotation from someone like Jefferson, Adams, Einstein, or other famous pesron, denouncing religion. If you need some, I have lots.