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And the Iraq of today is better than an Iraq under Saddam. With in-fighting and feuding, Iraq may fall back into chaos, but that wouldn't mean we should never have deposed Saddam . . . it only means we didn't do a good enough job.

And so it goes...

Who doesn't sympathize with those who suffer? I certainly sympathize with the millions who suffered, died and lived in fear during Saddam's regime.

Iraqi's want the U.S. out . . . but not too fast. They've always feared the Bathists more than the U.S. They know we don't want their country and will be a big customer for future oil sales.

The big, bad, boogey-man America is a one-sided viewpoint.
Dawah (proseletyzation) is a duty of a muslim. I do consider it a threat becasue to be a believer, you have be superstitious. They're promoting superstitiousness, and that affects the way people lead their lives. It is a threat IMO, but not an urgent one any different than the other abrahamic faiths.
given that roughly half the world believes in god islam could increase its share in the market.
the catholic church is growing at the same speed as the world population as i write.
so the threat isn't too big.
atheist numbers seem to be more stable, though less transparent.

hawkings latest book gives us more intellectual ammunition, or at least presented in an easier form ;)

hawkings is the new testimoney to dawkings & darwin.
Well, in case you haven't seen my previous rant this morning, Uk seems more full of pope-ification atm. That being said, and related, I'm feeling that Tony Blair amongst others have used religion for their own political purposes (or isn't religion ALWAYS for political purpose???) leading to more religious 'ghetto-isation' - HOWEVER, from my admittedly limited knowledge we are still a small island and, vocal and very substantial minorities notwithstanding (which includes my good self btw), still the majority are Church of England and only go to church at births and funerals, if that ... and in general a lot more integrated racially and ethnically and religiously than a lot of places in the world - including America.

As in the posting about the girl who wanted to wear a nose-ring in USA school against their rules and claimed her right to freedom of religion, you can't blame the people for exploiting this situation - of COURSE they want to take over the world (is that how you can tell the nose-piercing girl isn't following a real religion?! Maybe they could've got her on that!!) - don't they ALL say that they know and want to spread the TRUTH??? Everywhere. All of em?

As for Islam in particular, can I also mention the leetle question of oil, aka 'follow the money' - mosques in Europe and America (does that include the controversial 'ground zero mosque?'), maddrassas in Pakistan funded by Saudis .... and where did the 9/11 'educated' brainwashed and deluded men get their money????

The poor are of course exploited everywhere, as Bob Marley rightly sang, 'A hungry man is an angry man!' (applies to women too btw) Give us a decent life 'bread n roses' on earth and, well, heaven can wait.
I just started learning about Islam the last few weeks as several of my FB friends have been outspoken against the mosque in NY. I don't claim to know much yet...but just sharing some things I'm learning.

I just watched a documentary about islam on netflix "Islam: What the west needs to know". Whether you agree/disagree, this is a great documentary to educate yourself.

I'm a Christian, and after watching it I can draw some comparisons and contrasts. Here are a few worth discussing. Christianity is a religion/faith tradition. Whereas Islam is both a religion and a system of government. Islamafied nations are completely under the control of the theocratic government. The spread of islam has always been peaceful at first until they gain significant strength of numbers and political influence, and then they discard peaceful coexistence and then RULE and Conquer with the sword. From the 600's to the 1600's islam spread quickly and overtook many nations including Israel. It shows how the Christian crusades were an attempt to reclaim Israel for Jews and Christians (e.g. freeing christians and jews from submission to islam)

Christianity is not a system of government, but a WAY to live. It's not forced upon people (although you might disagree). Some evangelicals will strongly suggest you consider Christianity but we won't force it on you with the sword. Islam once in power DOES completely control it's people and non-believers. In fact, in islamafied nations, non-believers are forced to become 2nd class citizens unless they become Muslim.

In america, islam is becoming more and more significant. As they grow in numbers and strength, if history proves correct, they will eventually attempt to overthrow our government. Or maybe they will cause such destruction that muslims and non-muslims will split the country...and they will have their own state. Then, they will put constant pressure to expand until they CAN overtake the country.

Whereas I can say as a Christian: I have my faith, you have yours, and we CAN live together. Islam says it's either our way (islam) or it's death or submission.

In the end, it will be Christians and Jews, fighting side by side with Atheists and Agnostics, and members of every other faith...against Islamic domination.

Anyway, this is what the documentary shows about the history and what has ACTUALLY happened in these other countries. It is a wake up call to all of us...Christians, Jews, and Non-believers alike.
Too many people hold firm opinions about Islam, yet have never read the Quran or hadiths. They espouse opinions that align with their politics. The liberal viewpoint is inclusive and tends to bend over backward to accommodate Muslims (and most other groups). The conservative viewpoint tends to express concern at the clash of cultures between Islam and the West.

Liberal, progressive, policies are the hallmark of Western values. Human rights, anti-discrimination, pro-abortion, freedom of press and religion, etc. It took me a while to recognize that Islam simply hates Western values. They view our values as weakness they can exploit. The Islamic propaganda machine loves liberal apologists, here in the West.

I hate to say it but, being liberal for the sake of being liberal is wrong-headed and ignores the realities of a dangerous world that doesn't always embrace our liberal, progressive, Western values.
Islamic`s don`t argue the way we do, therefore they cannot be trusted and their goal is world domination, so lets stop them before they overrule us.
Doone... American conservatives are concerned about Islam for a different reason than I am. Tolerance is a virtue... but you can only go so far in it. Fundies think that Muslims are a threat to Christianity and that they are all terrorists. I highly disagree with this. [BTW... 'freedom of religion' is on the books but really, there is very little freedom of religion over here - for anyone besides christians - Americans pay lip service to tolerance by including 1 little shelf of cards for barmizfas and hannaka among two rows of christmas cards and decorations, but to be truthful... that's not tolerance or equality... that's pitiful. People of other faiths than christianity or Judaism are completely ignored as if they don't exist at all.... unless they "pose a threat" to christians. Then they are harrassed, assaulted, sued, ostracized, subjected to vandalized property [several accounts of christian conservatives spray painting swastikas on the cars of their Jewish neighbors], or even murdered. People who complain about being subjugated as a minority religion - or lack thereof - are seen as radicals and whiners by the majority, and sent threats and hate mail by the minority]. Secondly... I have no problem with people of different religions practicing the way they wish. Let Muslim women wear hijabs, let the Amish live in closed off communities and refuse to use technology. They aren't hurting anyone. However, when they cross the line is when they enact violence upon another person for not "adhering to the laws of their faith."

Secondly... I'm more concerned about the religious right in America. America's muslim population is still fairly small and [happily] are mostly made up of peaceful, tolerant, and democracy supporting Americans.

Truthfully... the area of the world I am concerned about with regards to fundamentalist islam taking over, is certain areas of Europe.

We Americans aren't all cut from the same cloth afterall. ^_^
Europe is mostly democratic and liberal, as is North America. If Muslims can swell their ranks in Europe, they can swell their ranks in North America. Multiculturalism in Europe aided and abetted the establishment of Muslim enclaves that want nothing more than to exist as separate populations: except where welfare benefits are concerned, of course. Some well-intentioned, but misguided, countries even allow limited shariah law within these Muslim communities! That's just insane.

The U.S. is a pluralistic society. If liberal apologists here push for multiculturalism (despite the lessons from Europe), I'm quitting the Democratic party. I'm all for freedom of religion but prefer to think of it as freedom FROM religion. Separation of church (mosque) and state needs to be bolstered and allow NO exceptions. We need to go whole hog on the issue of church and state. We need to tax churches, remove all references to God from the government (including our currencies), quit faith-based initiatives, etc. We need zero tolerance for religion in the public sphere.

Muslims know that they don't need a majority voice to agitate for government concessions. This is evident everywhere Islam spreads. Thanks to liberal extremists and apologists, there's no guarantee that we won't flagellate ourselves while bending over for Muslim agitators (as Europe has done). Proclaiming ourselves somehow more "independent" or freedom-loving than Europeans seems like a bias to me. It seems to me that many in this discussion hate America and hold liberal ideals as sacrosanct.

Don't get me wrong, liberal ideals are great. But they're not sacrosanct. We need to recognize when our ideals can be used against us by those who could care less about inclusion, human rights, anti-discrimination and other basic freedoms (like freedom of religion or of the press).
Hi Doone,

Blaming today's problems on colonialism from well over a century ago is tenuous, at best. Everybody has moved on. In fact, most people from France's colonial heyday are dead.

We can blame Islamic extremism on Israel, the U.S., French and British colonialism, or the absence of tooth fairies in Islamic folklore. Or we can put the blame where it belongs . . . the Quran and hadiths. The source of Islamic extremism is ISLAM not Muslims and certainly not dated and forgotten conflicts.

Ex-President Bush was wrong to claim that "extremists have hijacked Islam". It's the other way around . . . Islam has hijacked extremists. The militants, Jihadis and terrorists aren't killing innocent people because of colonialism or Israel or U.S. interventionism. They're simply pursuing the exhortations of their sacred texts. But don't take my word for it, here's what the Ayatollah Khomeini (the godfather of the modern Jihadi movement) had to say:

"Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled or incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of [other] countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world. . . . But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. . . . Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them [the non-Muslims], put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]. Does this mean sitting back until [non-Muslims] overcome us? Islam says: Kill in the service of Allah those who may want to kill you! Does this mean that we should surrender [to the enemy]? Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Qur'anic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim."
In this debate I do not think it's appropriate to place Canada, USA and Mexico in one block.

Islamification in Europe has been most successful in secular tolerant societies. In this regard Canada is more akin to European countries than the USA.

I think Christian nations have less to fear from Islamfication than secular ones, BECAUSE of the inherant intolerance. It constitutes a greater cultural barrier.

Islamification in Canada will be much slower than Europe simply because of distance, but I think Canadians need to pay very close attention to what is happening in Europe. The USA being a more overtly Christian nation must have a very different perspective.

Which begs the question... How is Islam progressing doing down under and in Asia? I have not read about this yet in the forum. I am under the impression that islam is growing in these regions, without such media attention...?


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