What is  your take? 

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In all fairness, this thread is, ostensibly, about Islamification -- not Zionism. On that basis, if anybody is "diverting", it would be you. After all, we were drawn to the discussion by its title. If you want to change the subject, start your own thread. I think that would be reasonable. If you do, let me know and I'll continue my response there. Okay?

Here's what I have to say for now.

In 1948, the United Nations granted Israel to the Jews, with their Partition Plan for Palestine. They've been there, legally, ever since. On the other hand, the Palestinians have a valid grievance. The way I see it, Israel must be permitted to exist in relative peace before that grievance can be resolved.

Wikipedia points out that, "As recently as 2007, a majority of both Israelis and Palestinians, according to a number of polls, prefer the two-state solution over any other solution as a means of resolving the conflict. Moreover, a considerable majority of the Jewish public sees the Palestinians' demand for an independent state as just, and thinks Israel can agree to the establishment of such a state. A majority of Palestinians and Israelis view the West Bank and Gaza Strip as an acceptable location of the hypothetical Palestinian state in a two-state solution. However, there are significant areas of disagreement over the shape of any final agreement and also regarding the level of credibility each side sees in the other in upholding basic commitments." If this is anywhere near the truth, then perhaps a peaceful settlement is possible after all, if both sides can enforce their own promises.

If rising above the "us versus them" mentality of Islam means denying the consequences of that mentality, then it is by no means "our duty". It's our duty to keep our eyes open and see what's really in front of us.

We in the West would like to be inclusive and progressive. But that's a weakness that leads us to bad policies when confronted with a fundamentalist ideology of Jihad. "Us versus them" is a choice that Islam has ALWAYS forced on us kafir (infidels). It's integral to Islam: the House of Islam (Dar-al-Islam) must struggle against non-Muslims, known as The House of War (Dar-al-harb), until the House of Islam is all that's left. This is why violence follows Islam wherever it spreads.

I'd love to teach the wold to sing in perfect harmony. That might be "the real thing" to us but it's a welcome weakness to those who don't share our values and ideals.
Yes, I'm afraid of Islam just as I'm afraid of Christianity. I fear Islam has the built mechanics for little more than conquest, but it is up to us as atheists to "innoculate" the curse known as monotheism.

But I'm trying to debate Lucifer and get him to realize the complexities surrounding the poisonous atmosphere in ME, and I feel most of it is Islam's fault. But he can't say anything reasonable and intelligent to say and falls back on hate rhetoric. Atheism should NOT be about that. And now he's accusing me of diverting. Quite frankly his attitude is starting to disgust me. Seems like he's living up to his screen name, and any Bible thumper coming here will see an excuse to go "Ah ha! See! Atheists are in league with the Devil." Which of course is utter bullshit.
Islam is more than just a religion. It's also a political and legal ideology. This is unfortunate because, time and again, it's the fundamentalists who gain control of the political and ideological spheres of Islam. Actually, "fundamentalist Islam" is redundant. There's no wiggle room for moderates in Islam. Islam is unreformed and, perhaps, unreformable -- it is fundamentalist in every aspect and this fundamentalism is reinforced by its holy texts: the Quran and hadiths.

The Old Testament is every bit as violent and primitive as the Quran; if not more so. The difference is that the Judeo-Christian religions have enjoyed extensive reforms. Nobody takes the scorched-earth, warrior, mentality seriously any more. But Islam is different. The lustful, greedy, violent and intolerant Muhammad is STILL the role model of the perfect man for Muslims around the world. Muslim men: fathers, sons, Jihadis and Islamic terrorists aspire to be like Muhammad. Some more successfully than others (unfortunately). The Quran and hadiths make it absolutely clear that those who do NOT fight the battles of Jihad are disgusting in Allah's eyes.

The Quran is the literal word of Allah. It CAN'T be changed one iota. The violent struggle for Jihad; the abject subjugation of women; the xenophobia of non-Muslims . . . all these are repeatedly and emphatically preached by Islam. The Muslim mindset is simply unfathomable to most westerners.

I lived in Kuwait for 6 months and found the typical citizen to be like anybody else, anywhere else, in the world. They just want to live their lives without a lot of stress. But even the most moderate among them acknowledges the devoutness of Jihadis and even terrorists. After all, these extremists actually do what the Quran demands of them.

And that's where the problem lies. Moderates acquiesce to the fundamentalists. When they don't (as in Turkey and Egypt) the fundamentalists keep up the pressure for Shariah law and bide their time. The ultimate goal of Islam is a world that bows to Mecca and proclaims Allah as the only God. Fundamentalists are hell-bent on bringing that vision to reality. Jihad is a direct threat to freedom around the world and a cancerous blight on the world.

Islam is a rabid dogma


But don't take my word for it . . . check out this dialog between an ex-Mulim woman and myself.
Could the destruction of one corner of the Arab world really undo the rest of the empire? Would the U.S. fall apart if California fell into the ocean? I'll take the author's word for it. I'm no expert.

The Arab world had its own Dark Ages after Islamic fundamentalism took over. They essentially followed the same path that Christian Europe took. The heyday of Muslim cultural and scientific achievement petered out as Islamic fundamentalism squelched curiosity and innovation.

Revealed religion has a way of doing that :-)
Hi Lucifer,

Yeah, that was a sorry chapter of Middle-East history, for sure. Not America's shining moment. I hope you're not saying that the Iranian government, since that time, has been any better. Are you?

And Israel has never enjoyed friendly relations with the Muslim world. It seems doubtful they ever will.
At some point, we all have to take control and responsibility for our own actions. Nations do too. It's child-like to point to everybody else instead of to oneself. The same is true for nations.

By the way, many nations -- including Arab and/or Muslim nations -- meddle in the affairs of other nations. Such meddling is not limited to super-powers.
"Islam is more than just a religion. It's also a political and legal ideology."

I'm pretty sure I would call Christianity the same thing...
Hi Jon,

Christianity can certainly meddle with politics and law . . . but that's not what I'm talking about. Shariah law is integral to Islam and regulates all facets of life. Most Muslim countries have Shariah law and the few that don't are under constant pressure, from fundamentalists, to implement it.

Christianity has reformed. Islam and (so far) most Islamic countries have not, and don't aim to empower secularism.

"But even the most moderate among them acknowledges the devoutness of Jihadis and even terrorists. After all, these extremists actually do what the Quran demands of them."

That's what I've found most often in my experiences with Muslims too. I would tend to agree with you and much appreciated the link to your conversation.
I don't think that there is a huge thereat of Islamification. If there were we would be seeing large numbers of western people converting to Islam. I'm not afraid of Islamification. I am afraid of Islam as a religion a little more than I am of Christianity. In Christianity there is room for moderation, tolerance, and respect. In Islam there is little to no room for moderation, tolerance, and respect. Women are treated as second class citizens. Homosexuals, atheists, and those who have doubts or want to leave the faith are under threat of death. There is no question as with Christianity if you read scripture as literal or figurative. Ect...

What I am more worried about than any of the above is the homegrown crazies waving the flag and carrying the cross who apparently don't understand the first amendment or disregard it, who think that Obama is socialist (and adhere to the myriad of other misconceptions as if they were truth), who think that science is the root of all evil (except for when it keeps someone they love alive even if they are a vegetable) and who thank that the tea party is hot shit. Those people scare me because they actually have some modicum of influence on the officials who are being elected and the laws that are being passes and rejected. Muslims are such a small minority here and such a despised one that their influence barely if ever reaches beyond their own local communities.


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