Specificaly this form:

The Western notion of justice is a concept of moral rightness based on ethics, rationality, law, natural law, religion, equity or fairness.

There is no way to equally judge another human being or bring back what the violation has caused equally. The attempt will lead to mistakes and cruelty. More insidious is the notion someone can bring justice. I bring this up because the smart men and women I know (asked 40) all agreed this is why they still believe in the religion they believe in. Some cited fear of death as number 2 but all said they believe there has to be justice  from higher power ultimatey. And that this is the only solace they have in this world. They believe someone who took so much life, like a Dahmer, would have to be judged by something eternal. I said someone in war may take 100's of lives but this is judged justice because they did it under orders or for a "just" cause.

Justice does seem to be hard wired instinctual.Most social mammals show different degrees of abhorrents to inequality.Especially primates.

But essentially isn't the pursuit of real justice not possible? Calling it necessary means this will make those who deem the power to wield it, to better humanity, unjust from the beginning? Isn't justice another way of claiming superiority? Doesn't a despot in the world use it to claim there power? If we agree justice is not a noble pursuit and clearly impossible (like following the word of god), what laws or punishments should be changed or updated? How would you feel if a mass murder or child molester was treated with a kind hand, rather than the visceral feeling of gutting them like a pig and dancing in the entrails as they slowing die. I am the first to admit this sounds more like justice at a primal level. But should we be smarter than that?

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I think for a serial rapist or one whose guilt is beyond question, a body modification might be called for. One might give him the alternative of permanent incarceration instead of surgery. His choice. Maybe on a sort of Devil's Island for sex offenders. 

Quite honestly some may ask to be altered. Again that maybe a step in actual recovery. Recognising the bottom as hatred for yourself is not the actual lowest point. request for your own death, or alterations of this type would be one more step down. And that is what is takes to get down past the mental illness barriers to eradicate teh disease like chemo really. Its harder to go through this then to rot in jail really it is. Even harder then execution because you can always blame the system for your own death. when nothing is left but to blame yourself the torture that will set in is profound. the fervor to make ammends coould be even greater.

However this all goes to shit when you can just say I'm sorry to fucking jesus and go to heaven!!!

How much effort should we make sympathizing with a serial rapist?

@Unseen none it's for all for humanity sake not FOR the rapist. Sympathy is not at all what I propose.

Shouldn't we be concentrating on satisfying the rapist's victim(s)? Isn't that what humanity wants? Doesn't humanity want people to get what they deserve as much as possible?

@Unseen That is the problem with so called "Justice" it isn't an either or statement. why with billions of people on the planet should this be an either or statement. What if the BEST thing to do is not the easiest to contemplate seems really normal to me when we don't use scietific methods to attack moral issues. If the rapist who quite usually is a victim of horrible atrocities in there own lives becomes able to dehumanize another person to the point that it's ok to do what they did and fetishize it as an appropriate action is not getting off scott free by confronting what they did unbtil they are aware of the actual action. Spending time figure out and possibly helping the rapist will lead to an understanding of how to attack that mental illness in the public and how to help the innocent victim as well. if specific environments caused the the proclivity to become rampant creating the diseased mind, then even the identified victim will get better treatment options for their recovery.

Understanding the crime is extremely important to the person who was affected on both sides. we are missing the opportunity to actually help recovery for the ultimately innocent victim by ignoring the mentally ill victim.

I don't think this is close call actually. If we look scientifically at any moral issues a right and wrong answer becomes clear. the rapist is not longer in the general population and treatment will probably take longer than incarceration, but if they really recover or not, it is still better to attempt than letting the rapist just stew in jail until their time is up and out they come with nothing to stop their behavior. and we learned even less from the incident to help the rest of humanity.

your comment is why I brought this up, justice is not possible because we aren't trying to do what's necessary to stop it or even understand it.

 the rapist who quite usually a victim of horrible atrocities in there lives

There you go again Mat with one of your patented "statistics" pulled out of thin air. Or, do you have a real statistic to back that up?

@unseen Sure why not.

Up to 80% were abused as children. i picked the first source I found there are many others. source

And that should be an expected step in recovery. after that you can lift them back to service as a way to pay back for their actions.

its the only real reparation possible because a death for a death leaves no positives left.

There are brain scans that show area's of the brain that are damaged from child abuse and neglect. But it only projects proclivity to incarceration. No one walks away scott free. You are thinking that some payment has to be made but what if the harder work of research and dialogue, depending on the crime, forced on the "wrongdoer".

As someone else said there are those that cannot be redeemed but they should be the extremes we need to study to know the medium. But do you see how even the mention of doing this and why makes you feel like defending the way we do it now? How is it we have more people in jail then almost any other major country? because we have too many unfair laws incarcerating millions of youth and mostly minorities into environments that teach recidivation. Mostly because the public cannot allow for this dialogue to even occur. Yes it needs to be looked at from the minor crime to the major in order to get the real big picture and to make it fair. Otherwise the pursuit of justice is just killing people and families that would otherwise be replenishing our society with new idea's and even more amazing breakthroughs.

Even if they could find the spot in the brain and cut it out  so it doesn't happen again it is not ok to give them the procedure without the crime because I know I certainly try to overcome my short failings.

Does this mean if they are better it excuses their crime my thought does the victim decide the penalty when the criminal may be a victim themselves? And what part of fair is an eye for an eye? But I know in the middle of the depression over a loss or violation that's all I wanted, It doesn't pay the life left living to hate anyone for that long. The only real repayment for a life taken is a life saved.

I'm also suggesting that what people "deserve" is more support in their formative years, and it would help to keep positive, social connections going, especially for those who have difficulty with it. (It ain't easy.)

"The need for justice is a dangerous pursuit" is not a bad title, either. I hope this discussion can go deeper. I really do think that most people don't have a clue about its bigger picture.

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