Specificaly this form:

The Western notion of justice is a concept of moral rightness based on ethics, rationality, law, natural law, religion, equity or fairness.

There is no way to equally judge another human being or bring back what the violation has caused equally. The attempt will lead to mistakes and cruelty. More insidious is the notion someone can bring justice. I bring this up because the smart men and women I know (asked 40) all agreed this is why they still believe in the religion they believe in. Some cited fear of death as number 2 but all said they believe there has to be justice  from higher power ultimatey. And that this is the only solace they have in this world. They believe someone who took so much life, like a Dahmer, would have to be judged by something eternal. I said someone in war may take 100's of lives but this is judged justice because they did it under orders or for a "just" cause.

Justice does seem to be hard wired instinctual.Most social mammals show different degrees of abhorrents to inequality.Especially primates.

But essentially isn't the pursuit of real justice not possible? Calling it necessary means this will make those who deem the power to wield it, to better humanity, unjust from the beginning? Isn't justice another way of claiming superiority? Doesn't a despot in the world use it to claim there power? If we agree justice is not a noble pursuit and clearly impossible (like following the word of god), what laws or punishments should be changed or updated? How would you feel if a mass murder or child molester was treated with a kind hand, rather than the visceral feeling of gutting them like a pig and dancing in the entrails as they slowing die. I am the first to admit this sounds more like justice at a primal level. But should we be smarter than that?

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This is one layer that needs to be examined. Are there penal system out there that work better? We do not like to admit as a nation or as a people when we are wrong and need to learn new ways. We all think we are at the culmination or apex of our station in life right and then we look back and realize what a dumb ass I was when I was younger or in that situation. What I would do with what I know now. some regret these thoughts I like to admit I'm wrong and learn from it.

Most offenders do re-offend.....they key word here is "most"

exactly even an improvement to say some is better than most. but i think rarely is a realistic goal.

Nope this is where research has not met need because no one wants to fund the research to help both victims in these crimes. There is no need to release without assurances of compliance. We need to spend the money and time to research how to mitigate recidivation. Right now they come out at the end of their stay in quaranteen and go out and commit crimes all over again without even the inkly of why they are doing it again. We let them out to recommit now.

What if we took the time and researched this throughly. Removed the non violent offenders from the violent offenders. Remove the young violent offenders from those who have offended repeatedly and so one and so forth. so many things to do right now that would help but we do nothing but house the sick in giant holding tanks to infect more people that go out and commit crimes because that's what they know to do. thats what there newly aquired disease makes alright to do.

What do they say now when the release a rapists after 10 yrs and they rape again? What if we could make sure the rapist knows why he rapes and then don't let the rapist spread his illness to other people who may not have been habitual rapists to begin. but after 5 years who knows what disease of the mind they will pick up. These are all patterns of thinking that our past, genes, and current chemical make up, can turn pre-existing proclivities into a danger to everyone.

What do they say now when the release a rapists after 10 yrs and they rape again? What if we could make sure the rapist knows why he rapes and then don't let the rapist spread his illness to other people who may not have been habitual rapists to begin

Why not be sure by (a) removing from him the ability to rape and (b) separating him from other prisoners?

Unfortunately the system is set up on such a way that they can easily get out on good time. Psychopaths especially know how to work the system to their advantage. I do not trust that many/most will/have been rehabilitated. I do know however that in order to even stand a change the addictions that most offenders drag in from the streets MUST be addressed before any kind of real change is possible.

Well thats one reason to seperate out and really classify who is in the prison. That is a mental illness when they are inaware of the addictions powerful influence over them in an adverse way. The system is not at all set up for any of the solutions on the table up for discussion here. No one needs to trust anything. Trust is completely over rated. This is about sytemic changes that will allow for a person under the influence of their illness to be nurtured and nursed back to health. one thing you can't have is a lot of currenlty sick people reinfecting the patient. Or causing a different illness which could cause different symptons and make recovery at all impossible.

@Mat: I agree with you that the system is not set up for success in many regards. The way an inmate is classified begins at the jail level prior to conviction. I think the real change needs to start here. The jails across the US (not sure about other countries at all...) are overcrowded, the correction officers are over worked, and this is where the majority of the horrors we usually hear about on TV occur. Once an inmate is classified to a prison it's a cake walk. The inmates who are prison bound know how to work the system, especially if they are re-offenders. They know how to answer the psychologists, they know how to "give their lives to God..." They know what's up. They become professional cons. Anyone who has been to prison knows this. I think the only way to weed out those who are truly able to be rehabilitated is on the jail level (pre-prison) for first time offenders. Once they've been in once the likelihood of real change becomes smaller and smaller...ever impossible, but the criminal justice system as it stands creates a web of complexity that is very hard to escape. The sociopaths within the system are the most likely to "fool" the professional and are the most likely to be released to re-offend, and the weak ones stay eaten by the system and either become professional cons, or join a prison gang for protection. It becomes a vicious cycle very quickly.

I agree but i think the first step is a systematic look at the laws we are sending people to jail for. Lets just take marijuana offenses which account for 2/3rds of the prison population issue right now. I am not making a judgement on if there should be a law but is it a correct law a fair law and does it work. We need to remove the monetary incentive to incarceration. From how police work the suspected criminals to how they are processed and finally we need to remove privatized for profit prisons. Correcting laws will automatically remove the profit because the prison population will plummet when correct identification and judges are allow to judge instead of mandatory sentencing laws. The whole issue beccomes less daunting when we know who we really need to treat.

But the burglar meets the rapist in the same jail sometimes the same cell. There is no way to know what they will learn or what they will do when they are let out. It';s liek quarantining the sick and letting the suspected sick come and stay for a while hoping they don't get the full on disease. Even if the rapist is in treatment for the rest of their lives that means the burgular also gets treated and the treatment is supported. I am not saying the treatments even exist right now, but something can be changed to end part of this cycle agreed?

"It's like quarantining the sick and letting the suspected sick come and stay for a while hoping they don't get the full on disease."

You secretly nailed the answer here. The way to change how criminals are treated is to prevent criminals from being created. An ounce of prevention as the saying goes is worth a pound of cure. People are now looking into violence from the perspective of disease transmission.

"IN THE PUBLIC-HEALTH field, there have long been two schools of thought on derailing violence. One focuses on environmental factors, specifically trying to limit gun purchases and making guns safer. The other tries to influence behavior by introducing school-based curricula like antidrug and safe-sex campaigns.

Slutkin is going after it in a third way — as if he were trying to contain an infectious disease. The fact that there’s no vaccine or medical cure for violence doesn’t dissuade him. He points out that in the early days of AIDS, there was no treatment either. In the short run, he’s just trying to halt the spread of violence. In the long run, though, he says he hopes to alter behavior and what’s considered socially acceptable." (Source)

"Violence, much like the great infectious diseases throughout human history, has been ‘stuck’ without lasting solutions. This isn’t because we don’t care enough, or because we don’t have enough resources devoted to it—but because we have had the wrong diagnosis. This has led to ineffective or even counterproductive treatments. Like infectious diseases, violence can be understood better scientifically, and the result must be a new strategy." (Source)

I agree that we need to change the cycle. The best place is at the beginning.

Oh man you hit a pet peeve of mine, teaching abstinance of any kind will NOT in any way help any issues. Like guns or sex or drugs. In order for those theories to work they would need to engage in not only religious dogma but the insistance on absolutes and scare tactics. Case in point is the use of reefer madness or abstinance sex ed leading to a huge increase in teen STD's and teen pregnancy across the board.

Iam now going to use the word holistic since it applies here. The beginning is only identifiable in a certain amount of cases. In the case of crime probably about 10-20%, maybe and I am being optimistic, and without a crime there is nothing you can do because being crazy or insensitive is not a crime. If you don't work on the rest of the issues at the same time it all goes to shit. It would be better to work from the top down in this case, since it would remove the infectious from the impulsive problem.

On deciding someone is not worth it anymore, I would remind you that a person who KNOWS they are not cared for in anyway has NOTHING to learn from or lose.

 

 

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