Specificaly this form:

The Western notion of justice is a concept of moral rightness based on ethics, rationality, law, natural law, religion, equity or fairness.

There is no way to equally judge another human being or bring back what the violation has caused equally. The attempt will lead to mistakes and cruelty. More insidious is the notion someone can bring justice. I bring this up because the smart men and women I know (asked 40) all agreed this is why they still believe in the religion they believe in. Some cited fear of death as number 2 but all said they believe there has to be justice  from higher power ultimatey. And that this is the only solace they have in this world. They believe someone who took so much life, like a Dahmer, would have to be judged by something eternal. I said someone in war may take 100's of lives but this is judged justice because they did it under orders or for a "just" cause.

Justice does seem to be hard wired instinctual.Most social mammals show different degrees of abhorrents to inequality.Especially primates.

But essentially isn't the pursuit of real justice not possible? Calling it necessary means this will make those who deem the power to wield it, to better humanity, unjust from the beginning? Isn't justice another way of claiming superiority? Doesn't a despot in the world use it to claim there power? If we agree justice is not a noble pursuit and clearly impossible (like following the word of god), what laws or punishments should be changed or updated? How would you feel if a mass murder or child molester was treated with a kind hand, rather than the visceral feeling of gutting them like a pig and dancing in the entrails as they slowing die. I am the first to admit this sounds more like justice at a primal level. But should we be smarter than that?

Views: 765

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

We know things are determined by events before them. We can't know if events are predetermined, but it's likely some things are not, due to randomness on the quantum level. Determinism applies on the gross (atomic and above) level. It's hard to know when and how events on the subatomic level affect events on the gross level.

but an unexpected event if we are aware of the determined path leads to a predictable response. Sorry remove predetermined and replace with determined, because predetermine would mean we are unaware of the determine path we are on.

I have no idea what you just said there.

What don't you understand? the dertmined path exists without the need to be aware of it. so seemingly random events are still part of the determined path.

That's just repeating what I said, which is that events in the gross (world we live in day to day) level are determined at all times. Sometimes by events on the same level but, possibly occasionally, by random occurrences on the subatomic quantum level.

@unseen repeating it to verify I understood what you were saying is all. Its called listening and repeating so you know I was understanding you. And I appreciate the thought lesson and pattern.

If I can add to Unseen's reply, you said...

...and therefore can be predicted if we are aware enough of the predetermined path.

That can be a pretty big if. All the computers of the universe put together couldn't predict a lot of things in detail. (For example, they at least couldn't predict each others' actions.)

the determined path doesn't need awareness of it's existance to actually be determined. its all a discipline in response to be less in the world of belief and more coherently scientific even when responding to things that seem completely random and un predictable. It really does make sense within this discussion. I know its hard to recognize but part of the issue is we can't really know if someone really won't commit the crime again wihtout attempting to answer if this is actually there nature and no solution will work or if specific steps can predict behavior.

I know we seem to change all the time but is it possible to MAKE someone change and I think it's possible to MAKE someone aware of there determined path not change.

is it possible to MAKE someone change

No, it's not always possible to MAKE someone change, but it's usually possible to positively influence them.

It took science a long time to make rockets work dependably enough, and we've heard the cliche about how difficult rocket science is. I'll bet human nature's even more complicated, but it's worth a lot more attention than we've historically given it.

yep i agree. Its harder than rocket science for sure and really I think the goal is to spread awareness to the victims that they are acting out of mental illness. I understand how crazy it feels being the passive victim. that is an obvious contraction from a diseased individual. And although the tools are not what they should be at least it's expected that the passive victim get and take and is given help. but even there we have work to do.

The nature of crime, punishment, and the various justice systems throughout the world will be dramatically changed within the next 20 years. Some of it has already happened. 

Criminal activity can certainly be driven by psychological issues, as well as addiction issues, which can be related. But much of the acceptance of criminal activity by those outside of those two communities (wrong word, but can't think of a better one) has been driven by economics. 

Muggings and carjackings and many other forms of crime are now things of the past due much to technology like Lojack and the adoption of credit cards and debit cards. Many criminals were brought into a network of already "successful" criminals. They were successful because back in 1970, a businessman out on the town might have $1,000 in his pocket available to steal. That was common, now it is quite rare. A carjacker could successfully drive away and have zero circumstances, now he/she could expose their entire enterprise and all associates if they accidentally take the wrong car.

My house was robbed in 2011, and the perp is in jail now along with all of his accomplices (there was a crime spree in my neighborhood 12 houses in 2 weeks). They were caught be a simple combination of security cameras in the neighborhood, a website named I-Neighbors which is like a mini-facebook for neighborhoods, as well as fingerprints, and other traditional crime detection methods. 

Other economics drove their choices, the TV I bought for $800 is available on e-bay for $70. That's why they had to hit as many houses as they did. My 'hood and house haven't got much in the jewelry department, but the places in the suburbs have alarms on everything. It just doesn't make sense to be a burglar anymore. Plumbers make more money and don't risk their lifestyle. Netflix eliminates the need for DVD's, Cloud computing makes computers less valuable. 

Add this to the fact that cameras are almost everywhere now, and in 20 years can absolutely be assumed to be everywhere (some of them smart, with face-matching technology). The criminal industry is another dying American industry, like manufacturing.

Ok, so less criminals. Now we can focus on more real criminals, how they get the way they get, and how to change their outcomes. Justice? Maybe there will be a different word for it. Correction, but actual rather than figurative.

Very good points!! I had seen some statistics to that effect but the personal experience to me speaks volumes to the growing reality. We can get into privacy issue in another post someday:)


Support T|A

Think Atheist is 100% member supported

All proceeds go to keeping Think Atheist online.

Donate with Dogecoin



  • Add Videos
  • View All

Services we love

We are in love with our Amazon

Book Store!

Gadget Nerd? Check out Giz Gad!

Into life hacks? Check out LabMinions.com

Advertise with ThinkAtheist.com

© 2014   Created by Dan.

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service