Ever since recently watching the season ending episode of  'Vikings' on the History channel I have been pondering the mob psychology of human sacrifice. It is believed that the practice of ritual slaying or human sacrifice has been in place for tens of thousands of years. I am trying to grasp the group mentality of watching  someone you have known and maybe even loved being killed to appease a god or find favor with the supernatural. How did this barbaric act actually evolve? Was it out of fear for their own survival that the onlookers dared not raise their hand in protest to these senseless deaths? I believe it was the Aztecs who supposedly in the space of only four days systematically sacrificed 10 - 100 thousand captured rival tribes people. The steps of the pyramid must of flowed a sea of blood. It seems impossible to comprehend how onlookers could witness such a massive slaughter of human life. Do we actually engage a different mindset when in the company of others to allow such acts to transpire? Even with their primitive understanding I can't help but think that these ancient cultures didn't, on an individual level, realize that what they were witnessing was somehow innately wrong and misguided.

Religious violence could be regarded as an oxymoron but in reality the two words seem to bed together most appropriately.

Views: 446

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

I think that Christianity was an attempt to put an end to this; let us have one sacrifice for all. However during marginally survivable conditions I'm sure early humans sacrifiiced their weak for the good of the rest and it just went on from there. Even a school of fish represents sacrifice. Any one fish that can keep up with the school has a life expectance of about 10 seconds.

 

Yeah I've thought about this a lot. Particularly in respect to community acceptence of it. It happened in Nazi Germany too. Normal citizens became dissociated from the obvious stench of burning bodies coming from visibly billowing smoke in nearby concentration camps. 

"The steps of the pyramid must of flowed a sea of blood.- how onlookers could witness such a massive slaughter of human life."

Can you imagine the stink? -

I've wondered if the Aztec people were all psychopaths and thats why they didnt care about it. That could also account for how the civilization ended. They were so brutal and they could have just killed each other off.

One should not let lurid tales intrude into the discussion. Cremation ovens neither smoke nor stink. We have them all over the world. Google it. Even so, the camps supposedly doing this were in Poland. What were the Poles to do? Tell the Germans to stop?

That's not exactly true, Matt. 

Here is a great article on the evidence of extensive -and yes- obvious death camps that extended outside Poland. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/sunday-review/the-holocaust-just-...

What I wrote is exactly true. I have spent nearly two decades researching the facts. I assume you mean the article references to so many camps. There are only a handful which are still considered extermination camps and they were all in the pre-WWI Poland referred to as the General Government of Poland during the war. If you want to fault camps the US had concentration camps. Ask George Takei. Of the handful only Auschwitz-Birkenau and Treblinka were ever considered significant although Chelmo usually gets an honorable mention.

As for cremation the Catholic Church was against it. Martin Luther was for it. It was as is still the custom for about half of Germans. That it was used during the war is nothing special.

BTW: I did not give up the usual religion for a secular religion in which belief is demanded in every claim and no one knows what they are talking about. It was all over before I was born and I was born in 1945. I wasn't there. I want defined claims and physical evidence for them just like for non-secular religions and gods.

BTW: The point was and is that cremation ovens do not smell or belch smoke. They are called chimneys. They were all fired by coal. In the US they are fired by oil or natural gas. They neither smoke nor smell. That is the way it is.

People who claimed they could smell burning bodies or see smoke are liars. They were just creating lurid tales for the attention. That is normal human behavior. One person saying "everyone could smell it" is still just one person.

 

Hi Matt

I read that the ovens weren't able to keep up with demand of dead bodies. Some of the ovens could only burn up to 100 corpses a day, but they were killing thousands a day so how were they keeping up?

Were they conducting mass outdoor cremations maybe?

I know that the Nazi's were tidy workers but to only use the crematoria for incinerating the bodies just sounds too neat.

and didnt oil become scarce at one stage during all of that?

"People who claimed they could smell burning bodies or see smoke are liars"

I find that hard to believe..

 

 

 

 

It takes only a phone call or two or a bit of googling to learn it takes some 3-4 hours per body per oven. A bit more and you learn the bigger the body the longer it takes. It does take a bit more research to find coal fired cremation takes even longer simply because coal takes a long time to get hot enough while oil and gas are hot enough almost instantly. They had no oil fired ovens, period. They all used coal. This was the 1940s in Poland. There are pictures of them. They are clearly coal fired.

The issue is not thousands rather the question is the claim of hundreds a day. Keep in mind these camps were liberated by the Russians with their propaganda machine. The western allies never got near them and never had an opportunity to inspect them.

Besides, cremation leaves burned bones that same stuff people put in urns and spread at sea and such. Other than a few fragments which add up to very little in total no one has ever found them. Oddly I have come across people who get as hysterical over bones that are not even burned as believers learning Lourdes water is just water.

Outdoor cremation is always possible. It had to be done after Dresden. However it is not the business of atheists to make up excuses for religion. Everything that happens in this world leaves physical evidence. As an American I know the CSI teams of Las Vegas, New York and Miami could handle it. I am certain believers can their own credible, physical evidence. Yes, I know it has been a long time so the forensic evidence from the 1940s will do for starters but there is none. The Russians did not investigate. Odd thing that.

As for not smelling, google up the locations of crematoria in your city. Drive around to them and smell the air, ask the people who live there, call the local EPA and ask about smell complaints. Do not take my word for it. Do not take anyone's word for it. Find out for yourself.

What does a scene in a Hollywood fiction movie have to do with reality? The whole thing is made up you know. There was no boy in pajamas any more than there was a Peter Pan or a Colonel Klink.

Similarly what does an exceptional report, something worth reporting for the readers, have to do with what happened back then? It talks extremely fat. Were prisoners fattened up or starved? Carbon monoxide does not smell, aka the silent killer which is why CO detectors are sold for home and they save lives. A disaster requiring a new chimney has what relevance?

It is not a sin to question the faith of others.

 

What does a scene in a Hollywood fiction movie have to do with reality? There was no boy in pajamas ...

I dont get my information from movies and I didnt see any of the ones you mentioned. They haunt me.

I had read that the second lot of ovens, the bigger ones made later,   and that could burn 350 bodies a day were oil fired.

You are so misinformed about cremations in Germany.

 Im not talking about the German funeral business Matt.

and I do believe that the German people could smell bodies being incinerated. If not from the ovens then from a different method.

 

I dont get my information from movies and I didnt see any of the ones you mentioned. They haunt me.

Not my problem nor do I know what "haunted" means in any context like this. Note my Avatar. That is Hiroshima. Tens of thousands of dead in the blink of an eye. Double that dead in a week. Wounds and birth defects so gross it took some 30 years before pictures of the decades of victims were readily available in the US. There are still victims to this day. And then there was Nagasake ...

And then the firestorms started in cities like Tokyo took some 24 hours but killed some three times more than Hiroshima. Nukes were more humane than firebombing. See Dresden below.

Having grown up in the 50s I lived with the plans by the nuclear powers of the Earth to obliterate several hundred million people within the first hour of war.

My threshold of haunted is obviously much, much higher than yours.

I had read that the second lot of ovens, the bigger ones made later,   and that could burn 350 bodies a day were oil fired.

I do not care what you choose to believe. I have come across enough believers in impossible things on more than enough atheist forums to know there is no limit to what people will believe. And I mean theists.

If you want to believe in 350 bodies a day fired by oil you just believe it. It obviously makes you feel better. Just do not demand I believe in the impossible and things which did not exist respectively.

You are so misinformed about cremations in Germany.

 Im not talking about the German funeral business Matt.

and I do believe that the German people could smell bodies being incinerated. If not from the ovens then from a different method. 

As above you believe whatever you want to believe. You can also look for pictures of the ovens and you can read and see they were standard models built by the major supplier of cremation ovens in Germany at the time. Do not let facts get in the way of what you want to believe.

As to that picture, having grown up in the 1950s in the heyday of flying saucers and UFOs I learned very young to look at the picture itself and not believe the caption.

I can't make out much of anything in that picture and I have seen it in a larger size. I have no idea who took, when it was taken or where. I have no idea what it purports to illustrate by looking at the picture itself. Traceability is essential.

There is a rather "haunting" but popular photo from Bergen-Belsen taken by the Brits and traceable if you look hard enough. It does show a huge number of bodies being dumped into a very large pit. Traceability however dates it to some twelve days after liberation. That is after the Brits realized the Germans were not allowing the poor inmates to drink the polluted water and let them drink it. The bodies are from the typhoid epidemic that broke out immediately. And the water was polluted because the Allies bombed the power plant out of existence so there was no way to purify it.

That is more than sufficient reason not to take seriously any claims about any photos particularly those of unknown provenance. But if you want to be more specific.

At the  Nuremberg trials the Allies introduced a film of German atrocities. At one point the defendants started laughing. That part of the film was showing the Germans burning bodies in huge pyres. They were laughing because it was film of disposing of some of the 50+ thousand German victims of the Dresden fire bombing. Such an Allied atrocity.

As for the German people smelling it, go back to my first reply. These supposed extermination camps were all in POLAND.

RSS

Forum

How do you cure Insanity???

Started by Belle Rose in Advice. Last reply by Pope Beanie 1 hour ago. 60 Replies

A relapse.....

Started by Belle Rose in Small Talk 3 hours ago. 0 Replies

The Elephant in the Room...

Started by Belle Rose in Small Talk. Last reply by Belle Rose 4 hours ago. 16 Replies

Services we love!

We are in love with our Amazon

Book Store!

Gadget Nerd? Check out Giz Gad!

Advertise with ThinkAtheist.com

In need a of a professional web site? Check out the good folks at Clear Space Media

© 2014   Created by umar.

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service