This discussion may surprise some of you, people usually put logic and atheism in the same sentence, some people even claim that to be completely rational one has to be an atheist. Today I hope to show you the absurdity of Atheism, not weak atheism, but strong, militant atheism. After reading the ‘God Delusion’ I thought Dawkins had thrown religion and my beliefs into a garbage bin; I had lost my faith and became what they call a ‘skeptic’.  However, instead of committing intellectual suicide and becoming an atheist, I was an Agnostic Deist for quite some time; I couldn’t rule out God as I had no reason too or empirical evidence to do so.

I somehow or other got my faith back (or more so destroyed my skeptical self and instead of saying, ‘I doubt it.’ Saying, ‘perhaps.’) and then it struck me, atheism is some what irrational. There are always reasons why one does or does not believe in something. For example I don’t believe in Santa because there is no man on the North pole and it is a fact that Santa was created by Coca Cola. I have reasons not to believe in pokemon, flying tea pots or even a flying spaghetti monster. When I ask an atheist why they do not believe in God, they have no rational reasons to deny His existence none, zero, nada.  This is rather odd, many atheists are famous scientists who are used to using empirical evidence and observation their whole lives and yet make the illogical conclusion that God does not exist. Dawkins thought that evolution proved that God was not in existence but was by humans (which is a big assumption). Dawkins has not ‘disproven’ God, he has dismissed a God some fundamentalists believe in.

A reason for a belief or lack of belief is a necessity for something to hold any weight.

  1. I do not believe in God
  2. Therefore, God is not real

Premise 2 needs to be backed up by something. Think about it for a second, any non belief you have is backed up by reason; you do not believe not believe n Zeus because you do not believe in him, you have some concrete reasons not to believe he exists. Perhaps even the Judeo-Christian God, you have reasons to dismiss. But you can not logically dismiss God. A being who created the universe may exist.

Some people will then try to bring in the flying tea pot argument, 'We can never dismiss that a flying tea pot does not exist, should we believe in it?' When rational people are talking about God they do not give Him any form (They may imagine He has a brown beard and appears somewhat Jewish) but we have no idea the form of God. God and the flying tea pot are not on the same page, one would have to use scientific evidence and observation to see if a flying tea pot exists. One can not see God, therefore we enter the realm of meta-physics.   So what are your guys views? I will take back what I said about atheism being irrational if I am proven wrong (note: I am talking about strong atheism, not weak).

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For all intents and purposes, the Universe is STILL a singularity.

‘We believe it will rain when we see the dark clouds heading our way. We have no doubt when we get wet. It is called evidence and proof. I have reason not to believe in the existence of a god. It is called lack of evidence, not even a scrap of it, never mind actual proof.’

Where I live dark clouds do not mean it is going to rain. I was going to head off to the beach to catch up with some mates, but that was cancelled due to dark clouds which did not rain. Lack of evidence is not a reason, there has to be a reasoning. So far you have provided zero reasoning for your lack of belief.
‘Please explain how you “somehow or other got your faith back”.’
Well I never got my faith back, its a different faith, a mature faith. I never dismissed God, I wanted too, but I couldn’t so I was never an atheist. I was an Agnostic Deist, me becoming a theist took a lot of thought and discussions with other people, it was quite complicated, if you are interested I can write a blog about how I became a theist again without committing intellectual suicide.

 ‘Prove the universe had a beginning. If so, prove that it was God. (I cannot prove it did or did not actually begin, but even if I could show that it did and that it was begun by God how does that bring us any closer to a deity that is in any way relevant?)’

I can not prove my own existence let alone how the universe came into being. I have arguments for my theism, not concrete absolute proofs.

 ‘How is love absolute perfection?’

How is it not?

‘there is no reason to believe a god does exist.
none.
zero.
no empirical evidence whatsoever, Adam. Believing in a god is A CHOICE, not a factually based decision.’
Well yes and no. We do not have any empirical evidence and a belief in a God is a choice but I have philosophical reasons to continue to believe in a God, I personally find them very convincing, so much that an influential atheist philosopher concluded that there is a God (Antony Flew)
‘When i tried to use the reasons/subjective evidence that other theists taught me about, it did not work. I did not get any divine response, i had to interpret this god all by myself, mostly just guessing what 'He' was "telling me" when my kids were sick, when my mother died when i was young, i did not get a reply. at all.’

Neither did I. But this does not mean there is not a God, this means we may not understand how God works or our definition of God is correct.

‘I have no reason TO believe in a god. What do we need a god for, anyway?’
Objective meaning a purpose.

‘A theistic God has many attributes. Omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent and omni-sexually-repressed. He's a personal God who answers prayers, performs miracles, punishes sinners and tempts the faithful (so he can punish them too). Theistic Gods demand worship. They crave recognition. They may be omni-everything but they have a soft spot for grovelers.’
I believe in a theistic God, I do find it some what irrational that God would want to have a relationship with me, but He does want too, I just have to accept it. Science and philosophy can only do so much.

‘However, if a statement cannot be disproven, we are not then automatically required to accept its validity. This is where I think that you have drawn a false dichotomy.’
No my issues is that everything should be backed up reasoning. Atheism does not have any reasoning therefore is irrational.
‘What are your reasons not to believe in Pokemon, flying tea pots, or the Celestial Prince of Pasta? [Sorry, couldn't resist.:) ] I speculate that your reasons would probably be that these things violate known laws of physics/biology/chemistry, deviate entirely from your known experience of reality, and are utterly lacking any demonstrable existence beyond the realm of imagination. These are roughly the same reasons by which many people arrive at a rejection in the belief in God.’
I would like to address this in another discussion.
‘What is your definition of God? It sounds like you recognize the reasons by which people have rejected belief in the gods of various mythologies and religions. For this debate to continue any further, you must clarify your operating definition of "God." A mutual understanding of all terms is necessary for rational discourse.’

My definition of God, how I see it, is a being who created the universe, who is perfect in all ways and wants to have a relationship with each person. Thats how I see God.
‘Just a few simple lines for each will suffice. Lets left the metaphsics out of it. I am not asking for any proof so it should be easy. I would like to give careful consideration to what your beliefs are. Thanks in advance.’
Ok.
1. God created the universe
2. God is love
3. God wants to have a relationship with me
4. God wants to re-new this universe and for it to be perfect
5. God wants humans to have free will and not be robots
6. God wants us to live good lives
1. I believe God created the universe because I do not believe any alternative theory or idea can dismiss the first cause argument. I also believe statistically that God created the universe and look at the incredible vastness and beauty of space and say there is a God.
2. Back in my Agnostic/Deist days I did not see why a theistic God made any sense. However I was reading an incredible book by Robert J Spitzer who claimed that if God was perfect, than God would be love, because love is perfect. This may seem like a big assumption for some people but think of any ‘perfect’ person (hypothetical of course) and they love, they unselfish love. Imagine a good king, a perfect king. He loves his people dearly and cares for them. Absolute perfection and love go hand in hand.
3. This is my most irrational belief. Why would God want to have a relationship with me? It all comes back down to point 2; God is love. Does that mean God will give me a mansion and a million dollars, as some deluded Christians believe? No. It means that God wants to have a relationship with me, an immaterial relationship.
4. Many humans have a longing for a perfect world, while some people dismiss this as wishful thinking. People truly long for another world. If we had been created for this world, why would we long for another place?
5. Free will is needed if God wants us to exhibit love for one another. God could of created us like robots and be completely loving, but its not the act which makes it love, its the intention. God allows us to choose our own path; with Him or without Him.
6. If God is good and wants to have a relationship with us, why would God not want us to be good ourselves? Living a good life is important, it reflects the kind of person who you are.
‘Children believe in Santa’
The funny thing about Santa is that children get over Santa; even though he gives them toys and loves them very much. Why dont children get over God then?
‘You have to prove that he does’ Indeed, but you need to have reasons to dismiss God.
‘Then there are other universes with no life’
How do you know that?
‘God is love? Where is the love in hurricanes? Deseases? Tsunamis? Earthquakes? Fire? Letting massacres happen? Letting children and babies die? Allowing wars? Punishing in hell? And all other evil and tragic things that happen in the world?’
We can discuss the problem of evil in another discussion...
‘You also stated that there is proof that Zeus is false... Please do share, because the 100% proving of non-existence is logically impossible. Why do people no longer believe in Zeus though? Because there is no evidence for him and the facts we do have makes him very unlikely. Ironically these same points are why I disbelieve the Christian god and all others.’

You can not prove anything 100%, not even evolution, you can prove that its existence is near impossible.
‘I think you read Dawkins wrong if you thing he said that evolution disproves God. Evolution does disprove part of the God story in the Bible however.’

He never said it in his book, I have watched a lot of his debates and evolution sent him on the road to atheism.
‘How did you come to this conclusion?’ Google Earth! But seriously I can not debunk Santa 100%, just like no one can actually debunk young earth creation, it may of happened; God may of made the world so that it appears that evolution shaped the world we know today.
‘When you grovel at my insults I'll say that you have some faith and grant you the scraps of my people. Really? This is spirituality’
No. Read some credible commentaries and they may help you with your interpretation of the Bible.

I can not debunk Santa 100%, just like no one can actually debunk young earth creation

So you are giving up on your original example. So let's work on Young Earth. You are suggesting that the great delusion God sent applies to Geology, speed of light, biology, chemistry, placing fossils and confusing their dating... to what end again? So that anyone who buys the evidence he placed will go to Hell? Again, this is your spiritual leader?

 

Read some credible commentaries

You don't think for yourself? You can't see that asking his followers to bring those that would not follow him in front of him and slay them is immoral? You can't see that promising to come back and kill everyone in a mass slaughter isn't something to aspire to? The same people your father deluded with information to confuse them should be killed by you. Thumbs up!

 

You wrote:
1. God created the universe
2. God is love
3. God wants to have a relationship with me
4. God wants to re-new this universe and for it to be perfect
5. God wants humans to have free will and not be robots
6. God wants us to live good lives.

OK, I'll buy into your argument.
God IS ALL these things.
Now, prove to me you have a soul, because without one your "relationship" with God could be a very short one, considering the ones that die young or at birth, without a chance of having a relationship.
Sort of disproves your idea of people having time for a relationship, if God "wants to have a relationship with" us.
Peace

You wrote:
"He loves his people dearly and cares for them."
What a bunch of horse shit ! Will you listen to yourself !
He loves his people so much, he almost wiped mankind from the face of the earth with the Plague, not just once but tried several times. But he showed his mercy becasue most people died within days from contracting the Plague.
He loves his people so much, he created a 1000 painful and devastating diseases that cause the people to suffer a slooooow horrible death.
You believe in sin and god's wrath !
You were NEV#R an atheist.

Your right your belief that god wants a immaterial relationship with you is illogical.
But let's reword this:
The God/you relationship is immaterial - irrelevant.

You wrote, "why would we long for another place?"

Because many are ingrates like yourself. You can't accept the hardships of life, and I assume you eat three square meals a day, probably NEVER knew hunger, has a nice cushy job, a nice home, a nice family, a mother who love(d)s you, and all those things that go with growing up spoiled. And you have a computer and access to the internet.
What's not to feel ungrateful for?
You were never an atheist.

I don't believe you.  If you were ever truly a skeptic you would know that the burden of proof falls on the holy.  The existence of a supernatural being who defies the laws of physics is a much bigger supposition than the fact that our universe came about through natural means.  You are most likely just another Xtian trying to win a few of us back over along with you.  Kind of like the guy on an ex-christian forum I frequent who claims that he knows God is real, because he personally used to have supernatural powers from the devil.  If there's no God he asked us, then how do we explain his former supernatural powers which included pyrokinesis and the ability to make people vomit uncontrollably.  Furthermore, I don't think that anyone here claims that God does not exist simply because we personally do not believe in him.  We claim that God does not exist because there is zero evidence to support that he does.  No Gods in the history of humanity have ever proven themselves... and there have been many.  And lastly, are you really so dense as to not understand the flying teapot or spaghetti monster analogies?  They, much like God, may exist out there somewhere, but without some shred of evidence to support said existence, it would be silly/ stupid to believe in them.

‘So you are giving up on your original example. So let's work on Young Earth. You are suggesting that the great delusion God sent applies to Geology, speed of light, biology, chemistry, placing fossils and confusing their dating... to what end again? So that anyone who buys the evidence he placed will go to Hell? Again, this is your spiritual leader?’

 

                        I think you missed my point. I was only saying that we can not prove/disprove anything 100%.

 

‘You don't think for yourself?’

 

These people have devoted their entire lives to understanding how one book of the Bible all fits in. Just as I would want credible sources for anything else, so is the same when it comes with theology.

‘6. God wants us to live good lives - We all want to live good lives, how much better is it to live a good life because we WANT to be good, respect our families and fellow humans.  If I live a good life even though I expect to die and cease to exist make my choice a better choice than a person who lives a good life in the expectation of being rewarded after death?  We both lived good lives but one lived a good life for a God that does not exist and for a reward from the God who does not exist.

 

I know that some Christians live ‘good’ lives so they can go to heaven, for me, even when I was a hardcore Christian, heaven was just the cherry on top.

‘Now, prove to me you have a soul, because without one your "relationship" with God could be a very short one, considering the ones that die young or at birth, without a chance of having a relationship.
Sort of disproves your idea of people having time for a relationship, if God "wants to have a relationship with" us.
Peace’

 

I dont understand what you are trying to prove here?

 

’ He loves his people so much, he almost wiped mankind from the face of the earth with the Plague, not just once but tried several times.’

When did He do this?

‘He loves his people so much, he created a 1000 painful and devastating diseases that cause the people to suffer a slooooow horrible death.’

Why are you going to blame it on God. If I was to get malaria does that mean that God does not love me?

‘You believe in sin and god's wrath !’

Sin is tricky, I really dont know what I believe.

‘You were NEV#R an atheist.’

I never said I was an atheist.

 

‘What's not to feel ungrateful for?’

I am not a materialist.

‘ The existence of a supernatural being who defies the laws of physics’

How does it defy the ‘laws of physics’?

I think you missed my point. I was only saying that we can not prove/disprove anything 100%.

I knew what you meant about Santa. That same way you feel about Santa is how I feel about God. He doesn't show up on Google Earth either. So you can't prove anything 100%? Do we have proof that we have been debating a few points of our understanding of religion? If we can't, what are you looking at? Can we prove that water is comprised of H2O? That the Earth Revolves around the Sun?

 

You don't need a theologian to decide morality. The Bible lays out the context of enough of it's claims without the need to understand what kind of culture accepts the murder of their own children, Jephthah (Also see Abraham, the Flood when God Mass Murders "his children" and revelations when Jesus promises to murder "his chldren".). This isn't deep theology. This isn't a question relating to the nuance of a translation like did Jesus tell Nicodemus about being "reborn" in John 3:3 when the premise of the story is that being reborn is a double-entendre. Yet it doesn't translate as such in Aramaic. Meaning, that the conversation never happened. That's a good place to call in a theologian.

 

So far you have said that we can't prove or disprove anything, which you know is not correct. You have asserted that you need a theologian to understand the very basic tenants of the Bible. Shutting down the eye of reason is the only way that you can assert these things. It's a dangerous proposition to say that you are going to follow the claims of religion and theologians without double checking them or verifying. This is the type of thinking that cause Jan Hus and Martin Luther to rise up. We are more than 500 years removed from Copernicus, Galileo, and Jan Hus yet you still haven't learned the lesson about thinking for yourself. I present to you, your thinking is exactly the type that is frightfully and historically dangerous. Introspection and skepticism of all things will benefit you.

C'mon!! You can't just ignore the logic in who is the one that must provide evidence for what they claim?

The existence is the thing that must be proven.

 

No evidence = No god .. The "FACT" that there is no evidence is why we don't believe!!

 

You claim that there is a god! We just say that there is no evidence that he exists, therefore we don't believe!

 

I know that I'm saying the same point 3 times, it's so you can get it, get our reason for not believing!

 

I think, given the number of responses here, that you HAVE been proven wrong, several times.

Do I have to logically dismiss the existence of Leprechauns or Fairies to you as well as a non-existent god?

Come on man, think logically for 2 seconds and you'll see that god is no more real than any other mythical being.

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