The Irrationality of Some Forms of Atheism
This discussion may surprise some of you, people usually put logic and atheism in the same sentence, some people even claim that to be completely rational one has to be an atheist. Today I hope to show you the absurdity of Atheism, not weak atheism, but strong, militant atheism. After reading the ‘God Delusion’ I thought Dawkins had thrown religion and my beliefs into a garbage bin; I had lost my faith and became what they call a ‘skeptic’. However, instead of committing intellectual suicide and becoming an atheist, I was an Agnostic Deist for quite some time; I couldn’t rule out God as I had no reason too or empirical evidence to do so.
I somehow or other got my faith back (or more so destroyed my skeptical self and instead of saying, ‘I doubt it.’ Saying, ‘perhaps.’) and then it struck me, atheism is some what irrational. There are always reasons why one does or does not believe in something. For example I don’t believe in Santa because there is no man on the North pole and it is a fact that Santa was created by Coca Cola. I have reasons not to believe in pokemon, flying tea pots or even a flying spaghetti monster. When I ask an atheist why they do not believe in God, they have no rational reasons to deny His existence none, zero, nada. This is rather odd, many atheists are famous scientists who are used to using empirical evidence and observation their whole lives and yet make the illogical conclusion that God does not exist. Dawkins thought that evolution proved that God was not in existence but was by humans (which is a big assumption). Dawkins has not ‘disproven’ God, he has dismissed a God some fundamentalists believe in.
A reason for a belief or lack of belief is a necessity for something to hold any weight.
- I do not believe in God
- Therefore, God is not real
Premise 2 needs to be backed up by something. Think about it for a second, any non belief you have is backed up by reason; you do not believe not believe n Zeus because you do not believe in him, you have some concrete reasons not to believe he exists. Perhaps even the Judeo-Christian God, you have reasons to dismiss. But you can not logically dismiss God. A being who created the universe may exist.
Some people will then try to bring in the flying tea pot argument, 'We can never dismiss that a flying tea pot does not exist, should we believe in it?' When rational people are talking about God they do not give Him any form (They may imagine He has a brown beard and appears somewhat Jewish) but we have no idea the form of God. God and the flying tea pot are not on the same page, one would have to use scientific evidence and observation to see if a flying tea pot exists. One can not see God, therefore we enter the realm of meta-physics. So what are your guys views? I will take back what I said about atheism being irrational if I am proven wrong (note: I am talking about strong atheism, not weak).
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Cathleen Sessions on -
Well, I guess I am a strong atheist after reading all the posts. So I guess I am irrational.
I don't claim the intellect of a scholar, philosopher or scientist. I don't believe in any kind of creator of any sort. In my own, irrational layperson way, I have read a lot of world mythology, world religion, history, science, Hawking, Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris and have concluded that, as far as I am concerned, there is no God or gods or first cause of a supernatural sort.
And I don't feel inclined to support my personal beliefs and feelings with any evidence whatsoever. Nor do I care to read convincing arguements that their might be some sort of god thing.
That may make me as irrational as any religious person in some quarters, but at least the basis of my personal conclusions is based on science and rationality.
If people feel that they need to keep their options open about a possiblity of god because its non-existance cannot be proven any more than its existence, I don't have a problem with that. It's just not what I believe in my own irrational, unsophisticated, emotional way.
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Permalink Reply by Gaytor on -
I don’t believe in Santa because there is no man on the North pole
How did you come to this conclusion? Have you traveled the North Pole? Have you been there at different times of the year and scoured the entire area? Maybe he moves South after Christmas? Do you have evidence that he doesn't exist? You've made a statement, sans evidence, to support your case for doing so as illogical. That's pretty good.
I have no reason to believe in God. I don't reject the possibility of a god, but certainly Yaweh has made spurious claims if the Bible were true. Jonah? Koalas got to the Ark even though virtually all of their diet is Eucalyptus Trees? Where do you propose this tree was grown on the Ark and how did he get the seeds from Australia?
Besides the claims, it would require that I shut the eye of morality to follow Jesus or the God of the Bible. Murder was God's weapon. Jesus says be poor in this life and you'll see my father's mansion and I'll come back to kill anyone else. Oh, and if you aren't ethnically a Jew I'll refer to you as a dog. When you grovel at my insults I'll say that you have some faith and grant you the scraps of my people. Really? This is spirituality? Matthew 15:22-28
God's existence is irrelevant as any god that I would follow has not presented themself to me. My only logical conclusion is that either god doesn't want me to grovel or that I'd rather not go and see his "mansion". John 14:2 I'll accept any consequences for being a better person. You decide if those consequences are just.
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Permalink Reply by George Sterpka on -
For all intents and purposes, the Universe is STILL a singularity.
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Permalink Reply by Adam Weber on -
‘We believe it will rain when we see the dark clouds heading our way. We have no doubt when we get wet. It is called evidence and proof. I have reason not to believe in the existence of a god. It is called lack of evidence, not even a scrap of it, never mind actual proof.’
Where I live dark clouds do not mean it is going to rain. I was going to head off to the beach to catch up with some mates, but that was cancelled due to dark clouds which did not rain. Lack of evidence is not a reason, there has to be a reasoning. So far you have provided zero reasoning for your lack of belief.
‘Please explain how you “somehow or other got your faith back”.’
Well I never got my faith back, its a different faith, a mature faith. I never dismissed God, I wanted too, but I couldn’t so I was never an atheist. I was an Agnostic Deist, me becoming a theist took a lot of thought and discussions with other people, it was quite complicated, if you are interested I can write a blog about how I became a theist again without committing intellectual suicide.
‘Prove the universe had a beginning. If so, prove that it was God. (I cannot prove it did or did not actually begin, but even if I could show that it did and that it was begun by God how does that bring us any closer to a deity that is in any way relevant?)’
I can not prove my own existence let alone how the universe came into being. I have arguments for my theism, not concrete absolute proofs.
‘How is love absolute perfection?’
How is it not?
‘there is no reason to believe a god does exist.
none.
zero.
no empirical evidence whatsoever, Adam. Believing in a god is A CHOICE, not a factually based decision.’
Well yes and no. We do not have any empirical evidence and a belief in a God is a choice but I have philosophical reasons to continue to believe in a God, I personally find them very convincing, so much that an influential atheist philosopher concluded that there is a God (Antony Flew)
‘When i tried to use the reasons/subjective evidence that other theists taught me about, it did not work. I did not get any divine response, i had to interpret this god all by myself, mostly just guessing what 'He' was "telling me" when my kids were sick, when my mother died when i was young, i did not get a reply. at all.’
Neither did I. But this does not mean there is not a God, this means we may not understand how God works or our definition of God is correct.
‘I have no reason TO believe in a god. What do we need a god for, anyway?’
Objective meaning a purpose.
‘A theistic God has many attributes. Omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent and omni-sexually-repressed. He's a personal God who answers prayers, performs miracles, punishes sinners and tempts the faithful (so he can punish them too). Theistic Gods demand worship. They crave recognition. They may be omni-everything but they have a soft spot for grovelers.’
I believe in a theistic God, I do find it some what irrational that God would want to have a relationship with me, but He does want too, I just have to accept it. Science and philosophy can only do so much.
‘However, if a statement cannot be disproven, we are not then automatically required to accept its validity. This is where I think that you have drawn a false dichotomy.’
No my issues is that everything should be backed up reasoning. Atheism does not have any reasoning therefore is irrational.
‘What are your reasons not to believe in Pokemon, flying tea pots, or the Celestial Prince of Pasta? [Sorry, couldn't resist.:) ] I speculate that your reasons would probably be that these things violate known laws of physics/biology/chemistry, deviate entirely from your known experience of reality, and are utterly lacking any demonstrable existence beyond the realm of imagination. These are roughly the same reasons by which many people arrive at a rejection in the belief in God.’
I would like to address this in another discussion.
‘What is your definition of God? It sounds like you recognize the reasons by which people have rejected belief in the gods of various mythologies and religions. For this debate to continue any further, you must clarify your operating definition of "God." A mutual understanding of all terms is necessary for rational discourse.’
My definition of God, how I see it, is a being who created the universe, who is perfect in all ways and wants to have a relationship with each person. Thats how I see God.
‘Just a few simple lines for each will suffice. Lets left the metaphsics out of it. I am not asking for any proof so it should be easy. I would like to give careful consideration to what your beliefs are. Thanks in advance.’
Ok.
1. God created the universe
2. God is love
3. God wants to have a relationship with me
4. God wants to re-new this universe and for it to be perfect
5. God wants humans to have free will and not be robots
6. God wants us to live good lives
1. I believe God created the universe because I do not believe any alternative theory or idea can dismiss the first cause argument. I also believe statistically that God created the universe and look at the incredible vastness and beauty of space and say there is a God.
2. Back in my Agnostic/Deist days I did not see why a theistic God made any sense. However I was reading an incredible book by Robert J Spitzer who claimed that if God was perfect, than God would be love, because love is perfect. This may seem like a big assumption for some people but think of any ‘perfect’ person (hypothetical of course) and they love, they unselfish love. Imagine a good king, a perfect king. He loves his people dearly and cares for them. Absolute perfection and love go hand in hand.
3. This is my most irrational belief. Why would God want to have a relationship with me? It all comes back down to point 2; God is love. Does that mean God will give me a mansion and a million dollars, as some deluded Christians believe? No. It means that God wants to have a relationship with me, an immaterial relationship.
4. Many humans have a longing for a perfect world, while some people dismiss this as wishful thinking. People truly long for another world. If we had been created for this world, why would we long for another place?
5. Free will is needed if God wants us to exhibit love for one another. God could of created us like robots and be completely loving, but its not the act which makes it love, its the intention. God allows us to choose our own path; with Him or without Him.
6. If God is good and wants to have a relationship with us, why would God not want us to be good ourselves? Living a good life is important, it reflects the kind of person who you are.
‘Children believe in Santa’
The funny thing about Santa is that children get over Santa; even though he gives them toys and loves them very much. Why dont children get over God then?
‘You have to prove that he does’ Indeed, but you need to have reasons to dismiss God.
‘Then there are other universes with no life’
How do you know that?
‘God is love? Where is the love in hurricanes? Deseases? Tsunamis? Earthquakes? Fire? Letting massacres happen? Letting children and babies die? Allowing wars? Punishing in hell? And all other evil and tragic things that happen in the world?’
We can discuss the problem of evil in another discussion...
‘You also stated that there is proof that Zeus is false... Please do share, because the 100% proving of non-existence is logically impossible. Why do people no longer believe in Zeus though? Because there is no evidence for him and the facts we do have makes him very unlikely. Ironically these same points are why I disbelieve the Christian god and all others.’
You can not prove anything 100%, not even evolution, you can prove that its existence is near impossible.
‘I think you read Dawkins wrong if you thing he said that evolution disproves God. Evolution does disprove part of the God story in the Bible however.’
He never said it in his book, I have watched a lot of his debates and evolution sent him on the road to atheism.
‘How did you come to this conclusion?’ Google Earth! But seriously I can not debunk Santa 100%, just like no one can actually debunk young earth creation, it may of happened; God may of made the world so that it appears that evolution shaped the world we know today.
‘When you grovel at my insults I'll say that you have some faith and grant you the scraps of my people. Really? This is spirituality’
No. Read some credible commentaries and they may help you with your interpretation of the Bible.
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Permalink Reply by Gaytor on
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I can not debunk Santa 100%, just like no one can actually debunk young earth creation
So you are giving up on your original example. So let's work on Young Earth. You are suggesting that the great delusion God sent applies to Geology, speed of light, biology, chemistry, placing fossils and confusing their dating... to what end again? So that anyone who buys the evidence he placed will go to Hell? Again, this is your spiritual leader?
Read some credible commentaries
You don't think for yourself? You can't see that asking his followers to bring those that would not follow him in front of him and slay them is immoral? You can't see that promising to come back and kill everyone in a mass slaughter isn't something to aspire to? The same people your father deluded with information to confuse them should be killed by you. Thumbs up!
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Permalink Reply by George Sterpka on
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You wrote:
1. God created the universe
2. God is love
3. God wants to have a relationship with me
4. God wants to re-new this universe and for it to be perfect
5. God wants humans to have free will and not be robots
6. God wants us to live good lives.
OK, I'll buy into your argument.
God IS ALL these things.
Now, prove to me you have a soul, because without one your "relationship" with God could be a very short one, considering the ones that die young or at birth, without a chance of having a relationship.
Sort of disproves your idea of people having time for a relationship, if God "wants to have a relationship with" us.
Peace
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Permalink Reply by George Sterpka on
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You wrote:
"He loves his people dearly and cares for them."
What a bunch of horse shit ! Will you listen to yourself !
He loves his people so much, he almost wiped mankind from the face of the earth with the Plague, not just once but tried several times. But he showed his mercy becasue most people died within days from contracting the Plague.
He loves his people so much, he created a 1000 painful and devastating diseases that cause the people to suffer a slooooow horrible death.
You believe in sin and god's wrath !
You were NEV#R an atheist.
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Permalink Reply by George Sterpka on
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Your right your belief that god wants a immaterial relationship with you is illogical.
But let's reword this:
The God/you relationship is immaterial - irrelevant.
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Permalink Reply by George Sterpka on
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You wrote, "why would we long for another place?"
Because many are ingrates like yourself. You can't accept the hardships of life, and I assume you eat three square meals a day, probably NEVER knew hunger, has a nice cushy job, a nice home, a nice family, a mother who love(d)s you, and all those things that go with growing up spoiled. And you have a computer and access to the internet.
What's not to feel ungrateful for?
You were never an atheist.
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Permalink Reply by Rodrica Davis on -
"Objective meaning a purpose."
And why can't you give yourself purpose? I think religion has told you that you need god to fill an imaginary hole within yourself. And you (like I) fell for it. As an atheist I find that I do not need this. While there is no ultimate meaning to my life. I give myself purpose. My purpose is to love my family, be only as prosperous as I can to be content in life. To make a career in something I am interested in and to love my life partner when I find her to the end of my days. I don't need an imaginary dictator imposing his will on me telling me to grovel and beg for his forgiveness because otherwise he will torture me in a lake of fire because he made such that I cannot believe. If he wanted me to believe in him, then he should not have given me a reasoning brain.
I believe in a theistic God, I do find it some what irrational that God would want to have a relationship with me, but He does want too, I just have to accept it. Science and philosophy can only do so much.
That doesn't seem like an argument to me. More like wishful thinking and an ignorance of science and philosophy. You would be surprised how far those things have encroached on areas previously thought to only be the domain of religion.
I believe God created the universe because I do not believe any alternative theory or idea can dismiss the first cause argument.
In other words. Because no one can yet disprove your theory, you're going to believe it anyway. Even if you theory has no empirical evidence to back it up. Typical.
Back in my Agnostic/Deist days I did not see why a theistic God made any sense. However I was reading an incredible book by Robert J Spitzer who claimed that if God was perfect, than God would be love, because love is perfect. This may seem like a big assumption for some people but think of any ‘perfect’ person (hypothetical of course) and they love, they unselfish love. Imagine a good king, a perfect king. He loves his people dearly and cares for them. Absolute perfection and love go hand in hand.
Well call it what is then. Perfection is love because I subjectively believe it is so. And some love. He builds a universe that will kill life instantly in 99.99% of its volume. The "great" planet of ours is itself hostile to human life in many places. Some places its too cold, other places its too hot. Some places it to dry. Other places drinking water is poisonous and while some of it is our doing that are places where the ground water has arsenic in it from natural means. The human race almost went extinct at some point. We kill and fight ourselves on a daily basis for about 248,000 years. All the while your god sat back and watched indifferently. It was only 2000 years ago that he decided to step in. Forget the 60 billion some odd men, women, and children living before his coming. Yeah, his love is quite evident. Give me a break man.
Many humans have a longing for a perfect world, while some people dismiss this as wishful thinking. People truly long for another world. If we had been created for this world, why would we long for another place?
Because people are greedy and think highly of themselves so they always want more. Wanting something does mean that something exists. Because so many men want to be married to angelina jolie, does not mean that marriage will ever occur. Wanted something does not prove the existence something more. Come on man. And you call us irrational. And speak for yourself. At least I suffer no delusion that because I want it, it must be true. I am perfectly fine dying and having myself end completely. Why I am fine with that is because there is no evidence to suggest otherwise and like a grown-up, I accept those things I can not change. I don't cling to imaginary places to make myself feel better.
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Permalink Reply by Dethblight on
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I don't believe you. If you were ever truly a skeptic you would know that the burden of proof falls on the holy. The existence of a supernatural being who defies the laws of physics is a much bigger supposition than the fact that our universe came about through natural means. You are most likely just another Xtian trying to win a few of us back over along with you. Kind of like the guy on an ex-christian forum I frequent who claims that he knows God is real, because he personally used to have supernatural powers from the devil. If there's no God he asked us, then how do we explain his former supernatural powers which included pyrokinesis and the ability to make people vomit uncontrollably. Furthermore, I don't think that anyone here claims that God does not exist simply because we personally do not believe in him. We claim that God does not exist because there is zero evidence to support that he does. No Gods in the history of humanity have ever proven themselves... and there have been many. And lastly, are you really so dense as to not understand the flying teapot or spaghetti monster analogies? They, much like God, may exist out there somewhere, but without some shred of evidence to support said existence, it would be silly/ stupid to believe in them.
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Permalink Reply by Adam Weber on
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‘So you are giving up on your original example. So let's work on Young Earth. You are suggesting that the great delusion God sent applies to Geology, speed of light, biology, chemistry, placing fossils and confusing their dating... to what end again? So that anyone who buys the evidence he placed will go to Hell? Again, this is your spiritual leader?’
I think you missed my point. I was only saying that we can not prove/disprove anything 100%.
‘You don't think for yourself?’
These people have devoted their entire lives to understanding how one book of the Bible all fits in. Just as I would want credible sources for anything else, so is the same when it comes with theology.
‘6. God wants us to live good lives - We all want to live good lives, how much better is it to live a good life because we WANT to be good, respect our families and fellow humans. If I live a good life even though I expect to die and cease to exist make my choice a better choice than a person who lives a good life in the expectation of being rewarded after death? We both lived good lives but one lived a good life for a God that does not exist and for a reward from the God who does not exist.’
I know that some Christians live ‘good’ lives so they can go to heaven, for me, even when I was a hardcore Christian, heaven was just the cherry on top.
‘Now, prove to me you have a soul, because without one your "relationship" with God could be a very short one, considering the ones that die young or at birth, without a chance of having a relationship.
Sort of disproves your idea of people having time for a relationship, if God "wants to have a relationship with" us.
Peace’I dont understand what you are trying to prove here?
’ He loves his people so much, he almost wiped mankind from the face of the earth with the Plague, not just once but tried several times.’
When did He do this?
‘He loves his people so much, he created a 1000 painful and devastating diseases that cause the people to suffer a slooooow horrible death.’
Why are you going to blame it on God. If I was to get malaria does that mean that God does not love me?
‘You believe in sin and god's wrath !’
Sin is tricky, I really dont know what I believe.
‘You were NEV#R an atheist.’
I never said I was an atheist.
‘What's not to feel ungrateful for?’
I am not a materialist.
‘ The existence of a supernatural being who defies the laws of physics’
How does it defy the ‘laws of physics’?
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