Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Max Powers on August 9, 2011 at 5:51pm

Beliefs and facts are totally different. This is why I ask, when do we draw the line between fact and belief. A belief is subjective, while a fact is objective as it agrees with the results of the experiments had. Yes, I agree that people do mix beliefs with what they think is fact, but if a person thinks god exists, or has faith god exists, it is simply not a fact albeit that they may say that it is a fact to them, but this is where I would like to discuss the fine line between a fact and belief.

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Permalink Reply by Stephen Walski on August 9, 2011 at 6:01pm

Facts require tangible, independently observable, testable conditions to exist.

 

Beliefs require none of those things just someones devoted opinion.

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Permalink Reply by Max Powers on August 9, 2011 at 6:24pm

Which is my contention, but I have had the argument posed to me that facts are subject to interpretation by the observer, ergo, not really facts. This was the argument, I said:

 

"Within science there is what we would call facts, its an understatement to call facts an interpretation. If you drop a ball one million times, it is a fact that the ball will fall and hit the floor one million times." Nano

 

To which I got this as a response:

 

"Such "facts" have always existed, but it was humans who came along and gave them a title such as theory and law. A tree falls in a forest but makes no sound unless there is an evolved brain present that can use ears to convert vibrations into what we call "sound." That is the legacy of science, presenting "facts" that can and always will be tested. Besides, facts have never done anything for anyone. It is the interpretations of these facts that create advancements, lies, and revolutions."

 

What do ya think? Especially this part:

 

"Besides, facts have never done anything for anyone. It is the interpretations of these facts that create advancements, lies, and revolutions."

 

Thanks for replying.

 

Nano

 

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Permalink Reply by Stephen Walski on August 9, 2011 at 6:39pm

The tree falling is just a rudimentary Shrodingers Cat idea. That since the observation hasnt happened it didnt make the sound. Which is quite true until you open the box containing Shrodingers cat.

 

As soon as you go to the spot where the tree was there is the possibility of observable facts to test for the sound.

 

Hes also using the Just a Theory idea but instead of stating it that way hes calling it Interpretation. Theories are interpretation only in the colloquial sense. Theorys more accurately are repeatable, testable, observable Super Facts consisting of the supporting subfacts and natural laws that support the current understanding of how those subfacts and natural laws relate to each other.

 

While yes new facts can change the course of a theory by either adding to or changing it. That doesnt negate the theory as a fact of current understanding. It simply adds to it.

 

Add a fact that doesnt support a belief and it crumbles the entire structure like a deck of cards.

 

I think that is the key to scientific inquiry is that a new piece of evidence changing a theory is a welcome and sought after thing. While a belief that obtains a new piece of evidence changing it is a destructive force to that belief system.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Stephen Walski on August 9, 2011 at 6:54pm

As to what i would tell him though.

 

I would say okay... If the theory of gravity is not a fact i defy you to interpret it by jumping off a cliff.

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Permalink Reply by noisician on August 9, 2011 at 5:29pm

I think the "fact subject to interpretation" doesn't mean that the fact is in question, but what the fact implies is open to interpretation.

 

For example, we can agree that the ball will always hit the floor when you drop it. You say this demonstrates the theory of gravity, but I say it demonstrates the nature of god as infinite, eternal, and unchanging.

 

Or statistics -- you've heard the cliche: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." This is because even when statistics are factually correct, they could be misleading.

A couple of examples are here:

http://www.physics.smu.edu/pseudo/LieStat/

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Permalink Reply by Max Powers on August 9, 2011 at 5:45pm

What the fact implies should not be open to interpretation is my contention. Such as the ball example, regardless of how you interpret the ball falling, on a fundamental level, it is a fact that it will hit the floor a million times.

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Permalink Reply by matt.clerke on August 14, 2011 at 10:00pm

noisician is saying that what the fact means is subject to interpretation. The fact that the ball will hit the floor a million times is just another (secondary) fact. The interpretation of the fact is another thing entirely.

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Permalink Reply by matt.clerke on August 14, 2011 at 10:09pm

I think you will find Facts are a very rare thing. Facts accurately describe physical phenomena and have predictive capabilities because of that. Beliefs are just what people believe... you can believe a fact, or you can believe random gibberish.

 

e.g. you believe that if you drop a ball, it will hit the ground. You believe this because there is a model( pretty much as close as we can get to a fact) which describes the operation of gravity and has predictive capabilities in regards to gravity. Someone else might believe that if they drop the ball, it will explode and destroy the universe. They do not have a fact to back up their belief.

 

I hope that helps a bit... this is all just my understanding of course.

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Permalink Reply by Max Powers on August 15, 2011 at 2:20pm

"Beliefs are just what people believe... you can believe a fact, or you can believe random gibberish."

 

This is where I would like to discern the difference between fact and belief. I didnt think it necessary to believe in a fact, much like the existence of a tree, it does not require human belief to exist. Those who cannot back up a belief, remain stagnant in opinion and the human mind can elicit plenty of opinions, rarely a fact.

 

Thanks for replying .. let me know what you think.

 

Nano

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