Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Matt on June 25, 2010 at 5:24pm

First of all, I would like to open by saying thanks for actually taking the care to UNDERSTAND Atheist positions. That in and of itself is a GREAT feat towards reconciliation between people in general of different belief systems, and something that I try to emulate in myself.

Mahatma Gandhi once said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

I do not think that Christians are dumb at all. On the contrary, some of the doctrines represented in the Bible, although used for social control, are some of my personal favorites. I think that, like any hateful group looking for hegemonic domination over another, most Atheists tend to overlook that coincidence that there are in fact a GREAT NUMBER of good Christians in the world today.

Steven Weinberg once said, "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Whether or not a person is deemed "good" or "evil" is completely relative and has nothing to do with one's belief systems, in my opinion. The point is that religion has nothing to do with morals, except to palliate any guilt left behind by those who are... how should i say?.... Adroit at making appearances??? lol

But, getting back to the point, I am in concurrence with Mr. Gandhi in saying that Christians "are so unlike your Christ". There have been SO MANY church scandals over the years, especially now with the Pope's sexual abuse scandal now all over Europe and USA.

Christianity was a great idea before the capacity to think analytically and to describe things dialectically. However, with our world now more educated than ever, I feel strongly that the time has come for religion, not just Christianity, to leave our society in lieu of scientific, analytic reasoning, without bias or pride. It makes me so sad that "Belief" is the greatest stigma of THE ENTIRE WORLD, not just Christians, or Atheists, or Hindus. When I realize just how dangerous conformation towards our instinctual and self-serving (spreading of genes) psychology and the dissemination of pernicious ideas throughout our culture, I am filled with angst, remorse, depression, pity, and even hatred sometimes. To me at least, it's so obvious what the root cause of all this suffering is. IN EVERY INSTANCE THROUGHOUT THE HISTORY OF RECORDED TIME, Religion has been involved as the major dispute in almost every single war in mankind... I would hope that there are those of us who would learn from our mistakes, but... it seems that some of us haven't yet learned the consequences of our actions, and the limits of believing in something strictly on the premise of "being taught a certain way".

"Unwavering compliance with authority is the greatest enemy of Truth" - Albert Einstein. It's not the exact quote, but you get the idea. And with this final quote, I agree COMPLETELY with what Albert Einstein himself said about society... EVERY MOMENT IN HISTORY where there is an unstoppable force, that plays on our Fear, our Loneliness, our desire to be Loved, our desire for spreading our genes most effectively, there are corrupt politicians and religious leaders that, with ease, almost BRAIN WASH people into performing actions without even realizing that they have had their own behavioral psychology changed. I'm not saying religion is a "bad" or "good" thing, I just want to maintain that EXTREME CAUTION should be taken when dealing with "cultural viruses" such as religion, or government. Ideas are a wonderful thing, but they also have the capacity for unspeakable extirpations of millions of innocent people (The Great Leap Forward, The Inquisition, The Holocaust, Al Qaeda, The Great Schism, The extermination of the Native Americans in North America, etc., etc., etc.).

So yeah. I do strongly maintain that Christianity was a good institution at first, but, as mankind evolves genetically and memetically, I feel that relgion will continue to find itself 'boxed in', and unable to provide answers to the young, newer generations of people that will arise in the future. It's simply inadequate, and archaic, when science continuously elucidates and seeks the Truth in everything.

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Permalink Reply by Reggie on June 26, 2010 at 12:13am

Mmm-hmm.

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Permalink Reply by Wesley on July 10, 2010 at 12:56pm

Hey Matt... I'd like to amend your Steven Weinberg quote a bit..

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

and ADD.. "Or any UNQUESTIONED ideology". Many good people have done evil things because of an unquestioned Ideology or under an unquestioned authority figure or both etc... which includes some non-theist ideologies and figures.

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Permalink Reply by Brad White on July 16, 2010 at 11:50pm

Thanks Matt. I've heard the Ghandi quote several times and it is classic! I love it. It SAYS so much about what I'm trying to change within the church. philosophies and differences aside...if you just look at the personality of Jesus. He preached a different message: love God, love others. true love is dying to oneself...for another (e.g. not seeking all gain for yourself at someone elses expense, treating others as you want to be treated, serving others selflessly, not judging others (whichever among you is without sin...cast the first stone...and since we believe everyone inclusively doens't measure up to that standard...we CANT judge others)....but alas...we often do to our own discredit. Ghandi had it right. If we lived as Jesus did...it would be a different and better world. I'm fighting for that.

Of course, many of you would say don't help the christians change, bring the house down and get rid of them. And if that's anyone's opinion on this site...I say humbly, you will have to find another advocate for that cause :-).

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Permalink Reply by Reggie on July 21, 2010 at 5:58am

.but alas...we often do to our own discredit. Ghandi had it right. If we lived as Jesus did...it would be a different and better world.

It would be a different world, but I seriously doubt that it would be better. Far from it.

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Permalink Reply by artsyatheist on June 28, 2010 at 7:39am

Challeng: Anti-homosexual & intolerant; Opportunity: Loving and accepting of the person. Not viewing this
sin as more sinful than any other sin. Treating others
who are different as still worthy of God's love.

Your site bothers me because you are trying to give your beliefs a public relations make-over so that you can convert more people. So you want your belief to sound more socially acceptable to atheists, without changing it's meaning or intent. There are Christians that I think are naive and unpleasant; there are others that I respect and love, but this is completely irrelevant to me being an atheist. The truth is that the evangelical Christian belief that being gay is a "choice" and a "sin" is homophobic, and perpetuates a culture that wrongly discriminates and marginalizes. Merriam-Webster defines homophobia as the "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals." I would classify this belief as an "aversion to" homosexuality and actions taken upon this belief, no matter how polite, as "discrimination against" homosexuality. I will not argue with your right to believe these things, but do not spin culturally ingrained homophobia as "love."

Challenge: More interested in "Saving"
someone, than loving them; Opportunity: Genuine love and care for the person first
Again, just another pr spin. Christians believe that accepting Jesus Christ as one's personal savior is the only way to get to heaven (and to avoid hell). So there is "us," true Christians. And "them," everyone else. Thus humanity is seen as split in two. An "us" can never come to a "them" and look "them" in the eyes, then honestly say that "us" feels on the same plain as "them." as an equal. Why? "Us" believes to know something that "them" is blind to. That something makes "us" special and also unable to give "genuine love and care" because that requires empathy and reciprocity. Furthermore, I would also throw out there that genuine love and care is selfless. This will make things very difficult for Christians, as no matter how much one can claim to be selflessly motivated, one cannot deny that there also happens to be a spiritual/heavenly (not to mention social) reward for such efforts.

All this to say, that as long as becoming a Christian means adhering to these (plus pretty much every other belief you have), you can save yourselves the effort of re-branding it. There's a reason that atheists aren't buying what you have to offer, and those reasons are not going to change no matter how it's packaged.

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Permalink Reply by Brad White on July 17, 2010 at 12:05am

What's so interesting to me is that although we are on different sides of belief, we are sort of on the same team...yet you and many others in this discussion...instead of saying "go for it...help those christians be more loving, less judgmental, etc..." you criticize me. I would expect that reaction from judgemental christians...not free thinking, just leave us alone, atheists.

I knew full well when I started my site and cause that MANY would interpret it as a PR stunt. It's not. I don't want to rebrand christianity without real heart and mind change. that statement is also on my site, because I knew that would be a reaction. How can I say it any more than I've already said it in this discussion...HELP me. Give me the ammunition to take back to my church (globally) to be able to say "we are called to love...but here is story after story of us not loving. What's up with that?...you hypocrites!".

Help me....don't fight me. Send every christian you know to my site (not for traffic....but for change). http://www.changingthefaceofchristianity.com

By the way...for everyone as of 7/16/2010, 11pm CST...starbucks is kicking me out. must go home and sleep. It may be a week before I get on the site again and crank it back up. Please don't think I've abandoned the discussion :-). Be patient...because by then, I'll have 100+ more posts to read through and respond too. It's like an ant trying to climb a mountain when the mountain is growing faster than he can climb. I can only do so much...

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Permalink Reply by Reggie on July 21, 2010 at 6:10am

yet you and many others in this discussion...instead of saying "go for it...help those christians be more loving, less judgmental, etc..." you criticize me. I would expect that reaction from judgemental christians...not free thinking, just leave us alone, atheists.

Two things:

First an analogy; encouraging someone to inject heroin in a safer way is better than the unsafe way, but why should we not encourage all heroin use by criticizing it as a whole.

That may seem a harsh comparison, but defenders of reality really do see comforting delusions as a drug in many respects.

Secondly, us "just leave us alone atheists" are here on our site being solicited by you. Don't mistake me, most of us appreciate your presence, conversation, and the intent behind what you are doing. However, you came here obviously with a set of expectations that are not being met. Where does the fault for that reside?

Go for it, Brad. Help those Christians become more loving. However, most of us think this can be accomplished only by their voluntary "de-conversion" from Christianity. Otherwise, their more loving nature is a mask hiding bigotry and old hatreds sanctioned by their religion.

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Permalink Reply by baddy on July 1, 2010 at 1:59pm

As long as you don't insult me or try to convert me then I don't care what you believe in. It's your life, not mine. I try to remain as open-minded as possible (sometimes it's not as easy as it seems! haha).

I don't have a problem with the people, I have a problem with the religion itself. I see religion (all forms) as a crutch and a way to control the masses. I think that instead of trying to look for other answers, some people just use God and Christ as an excuse or explanation for certain circumstances and situations. I see it as a cop-out, but you know... that's what you think and I can't change you, nor would I want to try and change someone's opinion or force mine onto someone else. Everyone has to follow their own path and discover things on their own. That's why there are so many different thoughts and beliefs in the world. People come to these conclusions about the world, life, and death as a result as their own personal experience. It's what makes us unique.

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Permalink Reply by Cara Coleen on July 1, 2010 at 7:29pm

lol

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Permalink Reply by Cara Coleen on July 1, 2010 at 7:28pm

I posted this response:

I was raised in a Christian home; my grandfather was a kind, funny and loving Southern Baptist preacher (one of the best men I've ever known). Until I was 24, I was a very devout Christian myself. It's obviously difficult to sum up my "Christian walk"; suffice it to say I took it very seriously and had many extraordinary experiences... as well as many amazing/intelligent Christian friends.

I won't go into it, but I became atheist on accident. I was trying to get closer to God when I discovered he wasn't there (that's the simple version). My biggest frustration with Christians NOW is that they think they know what my true motives were/are. They think I'm just rebelling against God because of my bad experiences. The ones I've been open with are very presumptuous and judgmental. They think they have the entire human population figured out without even having to have a real conversation with them. They refuse to believe that I genuinely no longer believe there is a god. The reasons I give them just seem to flow in one ear and out the other, if it ever flows in at all! I feel like they're not truly listening; they're just too afraid to even entertain the idea they may be wrong.

I understand where they're coming from because I've had the exact same thought process. But, they're not able to sympathize with me in the same way. Basically, I believe Christians are brainwashed... and that I was brainwashed, too, I just didn't allow people to tell me I couldn't ask questions, or that there were some things we just couldn't know. There's a lot that I didn't know as a Christian, and would never have known if I'd kept my ears plugged up. Knowledge is power, but Christians seem to put a barrier up between themselves and information.

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Permalink Reply by Cara Coleen on July 1, 2010 at 7:35pm

PS I also think Christians only want to know what we think so they can think of new ways of converting us. This is a clever ploy because I completely took the bait! Deep down, I want to have a real, rational conversation with a Christian and at least feel like they're not just smiling and nodding at my story, all the while thinking of their next reply. This little survey thing is a great way for me to vent my true frustrations, although I'm quite positive this will go the way of all the conversations I've had with my mother or Christian friends.

FYI I'm not a project. You won't be winning any points in Heaven for converting me (reason one being: there is no Heaven. reason two being: I'm not converting).

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