What a HUGE victory for reason and human rights. What a crushing defeat for those who enshrined their bigotry into an oppressive law, worked so hard to defend it, and said it was God will.

Let's face it. Isn't that what DOMA really was? A religious law? When organized groups or individuals who oppose marriage equality speak out, don't most of them cite supernatural backing for their positions? Whether it's the hardcore WBC Fred Phelps or the softcore 'hate the sin but not the sinner' Christian types, when groups and people like these sponsor legislation, support politicians, or vote, aren't they ultimately behind laws like DOMA? 

So a powerful super-majority group, while citing religion, passed a law that denied rights and benefits to a less powerful minority group. DOMA had little or no purpose other than that.

Didn't that make DOMA essentially a product of religion, akin to a religious law? Akin to doing the will of a God who exists only in their delusions? I think so.

DOMA was essentially a religious law, passed on a national scale, that forced a religious view on thousands of married couples who do not share that religious view. And now it's over.

I can't say it enough. I can't be any more glad about it.
Hatred, oppression, religion, and God: you lose.
Reason, freedom and equality: we win!

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Religious groups will always attempt to impose their beliefs upon other, either by intimidation, ostracizing, or by force of law (a form of threatened violence).

It is right and proper to oppose all of these methods. "Not to condemn is to condone."

I think, or hope, you meant that there will always be some religious groups that will attempt to impose their beliefs on others. It would be a major generalization to say that about all religious groups. 

How about you name a few who do not? Certainly not christians or muslims. Between them they overwhelm, at least numerically, all other religions combined.

Saying it cannot include all religions does not make it true. Proving it doesn't with examples does.

The church I go to has a food bank ministry called Mission of Hope.  Here is an article written by a local newspaper shortly after Mission of Hope became an official organization. Here is the church's website that talks a little more about it and has a short video that sums up the purpose of Mission of Hope.

Obviously, this doesn't prove that they don't impose their beliefs on the people who receive food from Mission of Hope, but there's no way for me to prove that one way or the other. I only know from personal experience that nothing is imposed on the people receiving food. I have volunteered there many times and know that, for the people receiving food, it really is as simple as waiting in line, filling out info about the number of people in their family, and getting the food. No one there tries to force beliefs on anybody. 

In the video in my second link, the guy mentioned the love of Jesus and wanting to show that love to other people. I do know that many churches are the opposite of loving. I think that many people get stuck on those churches that don't represent the love of Jesus and then don't notice when a church is actually loving people. 

At this point, you might be thinking that maybe there's just a few churches that aren't what you described. But there's more than a few. My church is a part of a global network of churches called New Frontiers. It is a network of people that feel the same way about loving people as my church that I have just described. Imposing beliefs on other people "either by intimidation, ostracizing, or by force of law" is not love and is not in any way helpful. 

Somebody that was converted to Christianity because they felt pressured or forced into it would not be a "good" Christian. Any legitimate Christian will know that you can't force it on people. It has to be something they choose of their own free will. "Christians" who pressure people to convert are only power hungry.

If you are telling the truth, which for a christian would be rare, your church is an exception.

FYI, most "christians" are forced into it while they were children and so brainwashed that few, like you, have the will left to question anything about the religion to determine if it is true. Do some research and learn that there is no evidence that any jesus ever existed. Your religion was founded upon a lie and has been lying ever since.

Here is some proof. If religion had any proof, it would not rely on false promises of a heaven and empty threats of a hell.

As stated by Dr. Bart Ehrman, Professor of religious studies at the University of North Caroline, Chapel Hill, NC said, "In the entire first Christian century, Jesus is not mentioned by a single Greek or Roman scholar, politician, philosopher, or poet. His name never appears in a single inscription, and it is never found in a single piece of private correspondence. Zero! Zip references!"

"If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries to secretly seduce you, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' unknown to you or your ancestors before you, gods of the peoples surrounding you, whether near you or far away, anywhere throughout the world, you must not consent, you must not listen to him; you must show him no pity, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following.  You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God."  (Deuteronomy 13:7-11, emphasis added)

Matthew 10:34  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Religion of peace, my eyes. Or are you one of the majority of christians that cherry picks what parts of your religion to follow and conveniently ignores the rest?

I do recognize that my church is an exception when compared to most Christian churches. Do some research and learn that there are more of those "exceptions" than you think. 

As I said before, there isn't really any way for me to prove that a church doesn't try to impose religion on people. Maybe that's why you changed the subject?

Do some research and learn that there is no evidence that any jesus ever existed.

Apparently you are the one who needs to do the research because there is plenty of evidence to show that Jesus did exist. Bart Ehrman even says that he existed. Yes, he came to a very different conclusion about who Jesus was, but he says to believe Jesus did not exist makes you look foolish.

Maybe you are aware of this, but the passage you quoted from Deuteronomy was never meant for us to live by today. It was the law that God gave to the Jews to be considered righteous by God. In the book of Romans, Paul explains that we can now be made righteous because of Jesus.

I never said it is a religion of peace. Jesus wasn't talking about a literal sword or even that he wanted to cause violence. What I think he meant is that when someone proclaims truth, conflict and hatred are things Christians need to be ready for. I know this might seem like it is a big leap from what the passage actually says. This sums it up nicely.

I do my best not to cherry pick parts of the Bible like a lot of people do. Honestly, there are parts of the Bible that I wish weren't in it. But I do my best not to ignore those parts because I sincerely believe what the Bible says. Think about this. If there is any absolute truth out there, could we really expect to like it? 


I asked you to provide even one contemporary account of the jesus character and YOU changed the subject. I asked you t provide proof that anything about your religion is true and you ignored that because you can't do it. I also asked you to prove that anything I posted is not true and you ignored that, too.

MOD EDIT. I have edited this comment to remove any ad hominem abuse. It is not tolerated on this site. Please refer to the site guidelines.

Jeff I already have a post open for you if you want to explain your version of the god you believe in. It is here. So if you have any evidence please post it because we still don't believe what you believe.




"Honestly, there are parts of the Bible that I wish weren't in it. But I do my best not to ignore those parts because I sincerely believe what the Bible says. Think about this. "

Thanks Jeff, I laughed so hard my sides are still splitting.

FYI, if it's true it is not an insult or an ad hominem attack, it is simply a description. Please learn to identify the difference.

@Jim Smith – Don’t play that game with me. You attacked the person Jeff with abusive and derogatory terms which were clearly ad hominem.  

You may disagree with Jeff all day long. I generally do myself. However I had to delete 3 sentences which I deemed offensive and were aimed at his character and not his arguments.

FYI, if it's true it is not an insult or an ad hominem attack, it is simply a description.

I do not care about the veracity of the points you made to his argument. You deliberately engaged in name calling and used very specific words that I deemed to be an attack on Jeff’s character. I am very capable of identifying the difference.

Now I am not prepared to continue this any further so let’s park it and move on.

Die DOMA Bitch DIE!

Elvis is Still Dead!

News at 11


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