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Permalink Reply by Reggie on June 7, 2010 at 5:26pm

What is better? Living longer, healthier lives? Not birthing 10 children so that a few might make it to adulthood? Less war, brutality, rape, etc.? Indoor plumbing? Relief from infectious diseases that used to kill millions? How can this person be so blind to history as to not see that they are already enjoying the comforts and security that come with secularism and science.

Atheist don't beleive in purpose in the cosmic sense. We make our own purpose in this life. So, to say that atheists don't have purpose is naive and ignorant. It is often the theist that I find struggling to find their"purpose", agonizing to hear the voice of a god that does not speak to them.

Christianity encourages people to feel guilty and worthless, always aspiring to a perfection that they can not achieve. And it is advertised as unachievable! People will always have that guilt no matter what. This is the hook for the church to bring in the flock. You can't achieve this perfection, but you can avoid hell by coming to the church and seeking constant forgiveness. Maybe fill the collection plate, too, while your at it. It also encourages avoidance of accountabiltity. Did you sin? No problem, just ask the invisible guy to forgive you. Atheists are free of that guilt and baggage that religion imposes on it's followers.

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Permalink Reply by M on June 7, 2010 at 6:57pm

I totally agree-- Christianity wants you to deny all of your basic biology, and then when (not if) you give in, you are to feel horrible guilt and know that you are a vile, vile person destined for a burning hell. One of my dearest friends has endured years of beatings by her husband because of an overwhelming Catholic guilt related to divorce. If that's god's love, you can keep it, thanks.

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Permalink Reply by Reggie on June 7, 2010 at 7:09pm

Precisely!

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Permalink Reply by Matt on June 7, 2010 at 5:55pm

Atheists are forced to deny who we really are, that we are in fact basically “good” people. The state of the world refutes that claim. Atheists, by and large buy into the delusion that every day and in every way we are getting better and better.

Who ever said anything about all people being good? That would be as absurd as saying all priests rape little boys. It's a dumb statement and he really should go sit in a corner for saying it. We all know people will do good and evil acts through out their lives, it's an accepted fact. We do these things mostly not because we are thinking of the consequences but because of our basic desires, I want something therefor I will take it. It's only when we stop to think how other people will react, and the effects it will have on them that we actually consider not doing evil things. EVERYONE does this, that's the universal truth, it's just a matter of whether people caring about the effects or not.

Atheists try to tell themselves that their lives have meaning and context and purpose but IF life, the universe and everything are in fact an accident, then ultimate meaning and context and purpose are absent from all of our lives.

Why wouldn't my life have meaning? Because when I die I don't think I will go off and live forever? What's the meaning in living forever in a heaven/hell, do I gain purpose then? Why do you need an ultimate purpose in life? My purpose is simple, to not cause harm to others, to enjoy life as much as possible, and perhaps to leave some lasting effect on the lives that were in my life. I don't understand this ego maniacal life style that the religious feel they must live. Are you so pathetic that you think that if the universe doesn't revolve around you that you aren't worth anything?

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Permalink Reply by M on June 7, 2010 at 7:02pm

What does how the universe was created have anything to do with a purposeful life? It seems to me that a person who does not believe in a deity of some sort and thus really appreciates this one life we KNOW that we have for sure-- enjoying it and absorbing it and living it-- has more purpose to their life than a religious individual who spends this life preparing for a "next life" they can't even know for sure will be there. That seems a waste to me. I guess it's all in the perspective.

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Permalink Reply by Reggie on June 7, 2010 at 7:08pm

You know what? Scratch what I said for the time being. The first thing I want to know is where this person is getting their information? Is this what their pastor and fellow theists are telling them? Have they even talked to an atheist about these things? This person doesn't seem to understand much about atheism or about atheists.

I doubt a conversation with this person will be very productive other than to hone your own debate skills. This person is ignorant, cocksure, and grossly misinformed.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Reardon on June 7, 2010 at 7:27pm

Some statements are simply not worthy of a response.

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Permalink Reply by Gaytor on June 7, 2010 at 7:39pm

Atheists are forced to deny who we really are, that we are in fact basically “good” people. The state of the world refutes that claim. Atheists, by and large buy into the delusion that every day and in every way we are getting better and better.

So the world is largely religious and you don't like the state of the world in terms of morals. it's getting better, but the world is becoming less religious. Do you even need me to refute your point or did you do it yourself?

2nd comment:Atheists try to tell themselves that their lives have meaning and context and purpose but IF life, the universe and everything are in fact an accident, then ultimate meaning and context and purpose are absent from all of our lives.

So if life is put here to worship a being it has meaning. If it's here just to enjoy it's a waste. You sell yourself well to those whom don't want to be individuals.

Atheists tell us they never believe sincerely with one part of their mind something that another part of their mind knows is actually false.
Atheists tell us they find happiness in holidays like Easter and Christmas, because even though they know there is no God to celebrate, they are with family and that is what really counts.
Christianity allows us to accept who we are - fundamentally flawed individuals. The state of the world proves this to be true.

You are aware that not one US National holiday has Christian origins... no?

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Permalink Reply by Velogiraptor on June 7, 2010 at 11:10pm

1st comment:
Fist you set up your own argument about what you think Atheists believe, then try to refute that argument with a sweeping generalization. This statement is moreover an absolute claim about those beliefs... "every day in every way we are getting better and better." This is an assertion without sources. I have my doubts that there are any sources linking atheism to the belief that the world is getting better and better every day vs. theists. Let's not forget that atheist doesn't mean non-religious. There are atheist religions in the world.

2nd comment:
Define purpose. Why do you assert that atheists tell themselves that their lives have this undefined attribute of purpose? Why assert the same about meaning? If a person decides they want to cure ebola or cancer and they either succeed or make a contribution to the eventual success of others, did it their life then mean nothing? Did they not define a purpose for themselves? Why also assert that with so many other lives around each life and intermingling with that life that it has no context if it's an atheist? That would mean that it has no setting, circumstances, or interaction.

3rd comment:
Why, if you believe that we are fundamentally flawed, do you require Christianity in order to accept it? What do you consider a flaw, much less a fundamental flaw? Why does the state of the world prove that we are all fundamentally flawed? It is a general statement with a qualitative conclusion. Has medicine gotten worse over time? Has communication gotten worse? If so, why comment on anything on the internet? Have homes gotten worse? Is war even worse? Is it worse to be shot than it is to be cleaved by a sword? Were there no large battles in history that dwarf any current-day conflicts? If not, how many people died in Antietam or at the hands of Alexander the 'great"? What about infant mortality?
Why is Christianity the exclusive way to accept our flaws as opposed to Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Mormonism, or Scientology to name a few? If we are fundamentally flawed, how do we know that flaw isn't our propensity to join organized religions?
Why is it invalid to enjoy the holidays because they are generally time off to spend with family?
Why is it invalid to be honest with yourself about whether or not you believe the burden of proof has been met for one religious claim over any other or over a simple admission that you don't know everything?

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Permalink Reply by Apple on June 8, 2010 at 11:24am

Now, now Neal. You're making the mistake of thinking that most christians have actually read the bible and understood the stories as they are written. You know very well that they are more than happy to ignore any passages they find uncomfortable.

For the theist it is all about them. They have a "personal relationship" with the creator of the universe. They have a divinely inspired moral code. (which may have very little to do with what is actually written in the bible, and much more to do with whatever political goals their church leader of the time happens to habor) Believers are generally ego-centric. The earth was created to suit their needs. They are going to live forever in paradise! It's all about them, and what joys they will get. They don't want to even entertain the notion that they are so small in the cosmic scheme of things. It is not good enough for them to enjoy life and make a difference here on earth. No, they are afraid of not existing, and the idea that what makes them who they are will cease to be. Though certain people will always be remembered through history, most people are simply forgotten as decades and centuries roll by. The reason they call Atheists arrogant is because we are not afraid of what our place is in this universe. We have embraced the fact of our mortality and yet still find purpose in life. This is why Atheists scare believers more than any rival theistic group.

Christianity and islam, among others, have two opposite extremes going on. On one hand even the slightest thought in one's mind can damn them to an eternity in hellfire. Every person is a dirty sinner, even from birth. None are worthy. At the same time they believe that they are completely immortal and the entire universe was created to fill their needs. Heaven or hell, they will live forever. They really need to dial it back on both ends. Just embrace your humanity. Every trival thought or deed is not a sin. You don't need cosmic repentance. Sexual desires, white lies etc are natural and normal. At the same time you're not a magical immortal. You are just human. The good and the bad. We have no need to cling to these two opposing extremes out of fear. People are humans, not immortals. Why is this so hard to accept?

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Permalink Reply by Velogiraptor on June 8, 2010 at 8:40pm

Well done. When confronted with the idea of killing a child, Christians will rightfully shudder. When you ask them about God's command to Abraham they squirm. Is it moral to even make the request of someone to kill their own child from a position of power, even if you don't intend to follow through.
Also, from the beginning (Abraham again) it appears to be all about personal gain. (Giving Abraham a nation and many children in exchange for his eternal servitude.)

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Permalink Reply by Bill on June 8, 2010 at 4:21pm

1. Atheists aren't into delusions. They form their opinions about how people are from facts.

2. Absence of gods does not imply that the universe came to be by accident. In fact, all observation indicates that it conforms to physical laws. Absence of a creator does not preclude us from creating meaning and purpose in our own lives. Ultimate meaning is ultimately meaningless. Meaning and purpose are specific.

3. Christians never believe sincerely. They reject most of the bible and only accept what is convenient for the moment. Christianity does not help you accept who you are, it helps you create fantastic delusions of immortality. The state of the world proves that Christianity has become a burden to humanity. It is causing immeasurable needless pain and suffering.

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