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Permalink Reply by matt.clerke on March 8, 2013 at 1:01am

Like how maths breaks down when you think about the insides of black holes. Not that you think you exist or don't exist, but that you don't realise you exist or don't exist... or something.

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Permalink Reply by RobertPiano on March 3, 2013 at 8:13pm

after the fires of desire, aversion, and delusion have been finally extinguished.

Desire and aversion are survival mechanisms and I thought delusion is the the whole point to meditation. There may real mental and health benefits to mind control, but lets face it, the 2nd law of thermodynamics can not be wished away by thoughts and an empty stomach will erase any profound peace of mind right quick.

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Permalink Reply by Belle Rose on March 4, 2013 at 1:46am

after the fires of desire, aversion, and delusion have been finally extinguished

Is that a famous quote or did you make that up? I like it. I'm stealing it FYI ;)

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Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on March 4, 2013 at 3:41am

"Desire and aversion are survival mechanisms" -

this is true, but the ego gets over-zealous in its efforts to keep us safe and to navigate successfully through the world.  It tries to over-control, and it thinks that our desire and aversion are an accurate picture of reality.  This control, desire, aversion, delusion and conscious mind can be thought of as the "self" which needs to be, if not extinguished, then reigned in, seen for what it is, and made to keep to its allotted tasks.  Outside of this "self" exists the rest of reality, which includes the deeper reality of your being.  I like Freud's model where the ego's job is to mediate between the drives of the id (subconscious), the super-ego (morality) and the outside world.  The ego can get distressed by the conflicts which may arise, and defends itself with subconscious ego-defenses: countering the conflict with an opposite impulse.  All this is only a model, but it works for me. 

"delusion is the the whole point to meditation" -

clarity is the whole point to meditation. 

It's been said that the Garden of Eden story reflects this idea.  The fruit of the tree of knowledge is a distorted ego-consciousness; banishment is delusion; hence sin: not thinking about others.  Paradise means existing in pure reality and love. 

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Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on March 4, 2013 at 4:29am

I want to refine that.  According to Freud, the ego usually does what the id wants (briefly, the Pleasure Principle) instead of love (the Reality Principle).  It's not always about helping others; rather, doing what's best in the long term. 

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Permalink Reply by Gregg R Thomas on March 4, 2013 at 5:07am

Right Here

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Permalink Reply by Sagacious Hawk on March 4, 2013 at 5:40am

Good one.

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Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on March 4, 2013 at 7:07pm

The Christians have their Born Again - this is a form of Nirvana, when done properly.  A genuine radical change in consciousness to one of "strength, joy, peace, love". 

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Permalink Reply by Belle Rose on March 4, 2013 at 11:17pm

I TOTALLY agree with you on this point in the sense that a TRULY changed Christian can experience a genuine radical change. I do believe that a profound change can happen. Before I became a Christian my life was totally messed up. When I "gave my life to Christ" - a process that took many years, I DID experience strength, joy, peace, and love on a higher level than I did before. But now that I'm a freethinker I am no longer confined to the chains of the Bible. I believe there's so many things I haven't experienced that will bring about a higher level of peace and rid my mind of the filth of a broken past.

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Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on March 4, 2013 at 7:13pm

And yes, this is a very excellent question.  How can an atheist reach Nirvana?  There's nothing wrong with learning from Christians and other religious people, since it's all the same thing in the end. 

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Permalink Reply by RobertPiano on March 4, 2013 at 8:16pm

Nirvana is the end to all religions and their violence, control and nonsense.Religion is the anti-nirvana. Replace all religion with the relentless pursuit of truthful knowledge otherwise known as science. And BTW "strength, joy, peace, and love do not exist without weakness, misery, war, and hate. Be careful what you seek. Why not accept all of it for what it is, instead of some fake rebirth into a phoney consciousness.

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Permalink Reply by Unseen on March 4, 2013 at 10:32pm

The Buddha taught that craving is the cause of ALL suffering (I guess he never stubbed his toe or had a toothache). When I studied Buddhism, it was all about suffering, not aversion or delusion (at least as causes of suffering). Anyway,

Nirvana is a state free of the craving that makes life so unpleasant. In fact, craving Nirvana itself is also dysfunctional. 

Thus, if you are asking yourself if you've achieved Nirvana, you haven't reached it yet. This is because the asking itself reveals a craving for Nirvana.

While archaeopteryx maintains that Buddhism is philosophy, not religion, he's wrong. While it lacks some of the trappings of, say, theistic religions, it does have rituals, which philosophies don't.

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