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Permalink Reply by matt.clerke on July 19, 2011 at 7:48pm

I agree it would probably make most people a bit uncomfortable. Do you think it was the proposition itself or the fact she was trapped in an elevator with the guy afterwards?
Was it the nature of the proposition perhaps? like if he had asked to catch up with her the next day for coffee in the lobby instead of that night in his room.
I'm just curious as to exactly what it was that caused all this... personally I see nothing wrong with the proposition and f

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Permalink Reply by matt.clerke on July 19, 2011 at 8:53pm

hmm, half of my post seems to of disappeared..... continuing from the end: from Skepchick's video I dont believe she does either.

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Permalink Reply by Dustin on July 19, 2011 at 10:32pm

See , that's the ridiculousness of her blog post.  The reader is left not understanding what she is complaining about.  The trapped in an elevator part , which Dawkins so hilariously refuted ... "All you have to do is press any of the buttons given to you and the door will open at the nearest floor" 

 

Or was she annoyed she was sexually objectified , as Dawkins also hilariously responded "I would be just as annoyed or more so if someone walked into the elevator chewing gum"  

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Permalink Reply by Dustin on July 19, 2011 at 10:31pm

I think she was saying 'Guys don't do that' ... implying to ALL women.  Not just her.  Which is what makes me a bit annoyed.  

 

I have the strongest gut feeling she means more by 'guys don't do that' , just as I have the strongest gut feeling the guy meant more by 'coffee' than just 'coffee' 

 

I could be wrong on both accounts , but that's why it's a gut feeling :)  

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Permalink Reply by Jewelz on July 20, 2011 at 7:43am

She followed up "don't do that" with "...it makes ME incredibly uncomfortable" and explained why.

 

She did not say that guys should never do this to anyone, ever, because it makes all women uncomfortable.

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Permalink Reply by Dustin on July 20, 2011 at 8:51am

Precisely my point.  She is acting like she is the voice of all women by giving her personal anecdotal experience and reaction to the situation and saying 'it makes ME incredibly uncomfortable' 

 

Why would she write a blog post about not doing that to one female , specifically Rebecca Watson?  Is this worthy of a blog post?  

 

Would you , Jewelz , write a blog post about how you don't like it if somebody did something specifically to YOU?  So if anyone ever runs into you in let's say Dublin .... or Tokyo ... Or Australia , we should best remember your blog and refrain from doing that which annoys you?  Seems like a bit of a stretch.  

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Dustin on July 22, 2011 at 7:06pm

Perhaps it's because she address all men?  'Guys , don't do that' 

 

Unless the person's name is 'Guys' lol 

 

Come on ... read between the lines and stop trying to be so literal.  She is addressing all men by giving her opinion , which she thinks holds for all women.  

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Permalink Reply by Jewelz on July 25, 2011 at 1:59am

She's clearly addressing guys watching her video who might, perhaps, recognize her one day and repeat this behavior she mentioned which made her uncomfortable.

 

She DID NOT say all women hold this opinion. Claiming otherwise is putting words in her mouth. I agree with scarlett that you're reading more into it because it supports your opinion.

 

However, I guarantee there are many women who would share her discomfort in that situation (myself included) and it might be wise to consider that the next time you feel like following a foreign internet celebrity into an elevator and inviting her up to your hotel room at 4am for "coffee" after she's made it clear that she's exhausted and going to bed.

 

If you aren't the kind of guy who would do that, than she wasn't talking to you.

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Permalink Reply by Boatman on July 19, 2011 at 8:10am

I'll take these one at a time-

 

1) Are all men evil-psycho-rapists?  The only one I am 100% sure of is me, and I can say with confidence that I am NOT an evil-psycho-rapist.  Further, I believe that the great majority of men in the world are not evil-psycho-rapists. Mysogonistic, perhaps.  Sexist, probably. Evil? No.

 

2)  Did she over-react? No, I believe her response (as reported) was mature, cool, and calm. "Please don't" - can't get much more calm than that.  I, for one, will not proposition her in a hotel elevator at 4 AM.  I'll go farther - I will not proposition ANYONE in a hotel elevator at 4 AM.  Just not my style.

 

3) Is what this guy did "totally fine"? - No.  Flat out, no.  There is a time and place for everything, and propositioning strange women at 4AM is not on.  Mind you, we know nothing about this young man in the elevator, beyond his lack of discretion.  It may be that he lacks the social experience which tells him in situations like this, "This may not be the brightest thing to do right now."  Hopefully, he learns from this.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by matt.clerke on July 19, 2011 at 7:54pm

There is a time and place for everything, and propositioning strange women at 4AM is not on.

So you are saying the timing of the proposition was cause for concern? I suspect he was probably afraid it was his last chance to talk to her in person and didn't want to miss out.

 

Also it is really not my scene but don't women get propositioned in nightclubs and bars at 4am pretty much every night of the week? bit different i'll agree, but still the fact it was 4am shouldn't be a huge cause for concern should it?

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Permalink Reply by Hannah King on July 19, 2011 at 9:56am

Actually, I'm pretty sure she was clear. It was 4am, she was alone, she'd just spent the better part of the day telling her audience that women really do just want to enjoy life without being propositioned and, whether people like it or not, women do actually have to live in constant fear in this rape culture.

 

Sure, the guy probably thought it was a fairly innocuous thing to do, but it was 4am, she was alone in a foreign country, and he propositioned her in an elevator after she'd just got done telling everyone she wanted to go to bed and sleep. 

 

Beyond that, it was actually only a short aside, mentioned in a much longer video. She was just saying 'guy's, try not to come off as creepy, and when a woman says she wants to go to bed and sleep, respect that' - that was it. It was everyone else who made this into a much bigger thing. (Not that it isn't something that should be addressed, as she had, in fact, done in her talks earlier that day.)

 

Dawkins - intelligent and interesting as he is - did not make matters any better, by belittling what Western women have to go through. Yes, it's not as bad as what women in other parts of the world live with daily, but that doesn't mean it's not bad. There is a legitimate concern in our part of the world over rape and sexual assault, and considering how under-reported rape and sexual assault is, and how few rapists and attacker's actually get jail time, even when they have been reported - is it any wonder? 

 

I haven't read all the responses to this, as I don't really have the time to go looking for every single blog/comment that talks about it, but I recommend Greta Christian's post on the matter. 

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Permalink Reply by matt.clerke on July 19, 2011 at 8:03pm

I haven't read all the responses to this

Neither have I, on the Skepchick website they even have overflow threads because the original threads got too long.

 

Sure, the guy probably thought it was a fairly innocuous thing to do, but it was 4am, she was alone in a foreign country, and he propositioned her in an elevator after she'd just got done telling everyone she wanted to go to bed and sleep.

Do you think it was all of these things in combination which made her feel uncomfortable? What could the guy of done differently to make the situation better? or conversely, which of these are the core issues and which are not particularly important?

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