Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Unseen on July 9, 2012 at 12:31pm

If breast removal can wait until cancer appears, why can't circumcision wait until the person starts having sex - say voluntary after 16 years of age as elective surgery? 

I think the fact that males who were circumcized as babies tend not to even remember the operation is an argument in favor of having it done at that time.

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Permalink Reply by Arcus on July 9, 2012 at 2:06pm

1. That's not a guarantee.

2. It doesn't make it any less of a violation of a child's right to sanctity of body.

3. It doesn't alleviate the freedom of religion issues (if done for such purpose).

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Permalink Reply by Unseen on July 9, 2012 at 2:15pm

1. Not sure what you mean.

2. a) sanctity means holy or sacred; b) rights are of two types: 1) legislated or 2) imaginary.

3. Not sure the freedom of religion consideration applies.

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Permalink Reply by Arcus on July 9, 2012 at 2:22pm

1. You cannot say for sure that they "tend not to remember". Traumas in infancy may have a life long effect.

2. My body is certainly holy to me. Yes, there is a legislated right in most jurisdiction that it's illegal to cut into another person for no clear benefit without their prior consent.

3. How is being subjected to a religious ritual and adopted into a religion without consent not violate freedom of religion?

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Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on July 9, 2012 at 2:28pm

Consent doesn't apply to children to that degree (especially not babies and infants).  They lack the ability to meaningfully consent or protest.  That right resides with the parents or legal guardians.  That's reality. 

Permalink Reply by Dogly on July 9, 2012 at 2:36pm

They lack the ability to protest, so F@^&K  'em.

Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on July 9, 2012 at 2:40pm

Straw man.  Waste of time.

Permalink Reply by Arcus on July 9, 2012 at 2:43pm

Children have the right to freely express their view and these should be taken into consideration to the maximum extent. Legal guardians are not permitted to make decisions which are not in the best interest of the child, and circumcision in the Western world does not provide any benefits which outweigh the risks. Nor are they legally allowed to subject children to physical abuse. Lastly, governments are required to work against traditional practices which may harm children.

Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on July 9, 2012 at 3:57pm

What you are talking about are things that are lovely ideologies, but largely impractical in the context of this discussion.

If you wanted to talk about the right for an eight-year-old to accept or refuse medical treatment for some condition, then yes, it's a much more complicated issue.  All sorts of delightful grey area gets introduced and I will tell you that I have no clear answers.  

But right now we are talking about infants who lack the ability to speak or meaningfully consider risks and options.  While I, personally, do not advocate circumcision at birth, I cannot pretend that this position is supported by lofty ideals of the innate rights of infants.  

We can't even legislate doing what is 'in the best interest of the child' because it presents too many complications.  We can simply legislate against some threshold of undue harm, which really isn't the same thing.  For your arguments that suggest circumcision is undue harm, sure, that seems tenable.  Infants have the right to be protected from some measure of harm, but any rights based on autonomy have to be commensurate with the level of autonomy those infants actually have.

Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on July 9, 2012 at 4:27pm

So Feenstra, are you saying that infants have no right to be protected from unnecessary surgery? Because I see it as an either/or situation - either you believe that to be the case, or you must believe that circumcision IS necessary surgery.

Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on July 9, 2012 at 4:34pm

I've already made statements to the contrary.  Most explicitly:

We can simply legislate against some threshold of undue harm, which really isn't the same thing.  For your arguments that suggest circumcision is undue harm, sure, that seems tenable.

Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on July 9, 2012 at 5:06pm

It's far simpler to substantiate "unnecessary surgery," than "undue harm."

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