Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Arcus on May 30, 2011 at 9:41am

"I doubt the UN or World Court"

Their meaning is inconsequencial as they have no guns to back up their arguments. Don't bring pens to gunfights.

Also, I have found that you think I am "going all over the place" when I provide historical context. You should already have an extensive knowledge of the keywords used and how the compare and contrast to my claims.

All history and politics is done by "compare and contrast" between similar situations and look at what the aftermath of choices. The choices themselves are inconsequencial, only their impact. Science is amoral, it takes no moral stance.

Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on May 30, 2011 at 9:46am

What I mean by all over is that I'm granting you point after point here and I have no idea what the fuck you are trying to say.  You asked how many lives would be morally justified spent on Iraq - I said, given they weren't tied to 9/11, zero.  So what the fuck are we leading up to here?  Where the fuck are you going with this?  Could you just make a point already?

Permalink Reply by Arcus on May 30, 2011 at 10:01am

1. The US is not imperialistic.

2. The threat from militant Islam is real.

3. The excursions into Afg and Iraq should be analyzed with full historic context.

I know it is difficult to understand, but the argument can be packed as neatly together like you do because it ignores the prelude and analyze by using retrospective means. You write in pundit backed sound bites.

Either you can choose to be correct or loud, I always choose correcteness over volume, even though it's more difficult to argue when almost everything happens in shade of greys. It's why I only use cursive, underlying and bold on words I specifically wish to highlight, and links to concepts which requires a couple of years of guided study to understand.

For very basic and thourough books on most of the subjects covered, you may want to set off 2-3 years to study this curriculum. (Unless you do not subscribe to education being the best way to understand the world.)

Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on May 30, 2011 at 10:13am

So is this a course you've taken?  Perhaps then you can explain...

 

If, as you say, Saudi Arabia is behind 9/11, why weren't they invaded?

 

What was the need for the Afghanistan invasion?

 

Why wasn't a democracy set-up in Afghanistan back in the 80's before the Taliban assumed power and while the Mujahideen were still allies?

 

Why wasn't Iraq invaded in 91 when there was full UN support?

 

Why was Iraq invaded in 2003?

 

Why was the Mossedegh government in Iran a target in 1953?

 

What is the predominant threat from 'Islam'?  What sort of body count?  If the big threat is Iran's nuke program then I have to also ask why they weren't a target for invasion before all this other bullshit got so out of hand?

Permalink Reply by Arcus on May 30, 2011 at 10:29am

Yes, I received a grade 7 in High Level IB History in 1999 and have attempted to use that framework to analyze all historical events happening since. It provides a fairly comprehensive skillset to seperate punditry from historical science, and it helped me greatly in college courses such as the history of the EU, history of political sciences, and history of economics.

If you don't mind, I can give you fairly comprehensive answers in a essay format, but I'll need to study up on reliable sources which may take a bit of time. I will also have to compare and contrast between the actions taken by the US in the questions posed with similar actions taken, and within a framework of how people were thinking at the time (not how it looks in retrospect), the prelude, the event itself, and the aftermath.

It might be a bit tedious and hijacking in this thread, but I can either start new discussions or a blog, whichever you prefer.

The main question you should probably ask yourself is: Why has all this happened? What made planes hit buildings in 2001? Then you go back in time as far as you need to get a clear (and more cluttered) picture. :)

Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on May 30, 2011 at 10:44am

I see, so you don't actually have an answer, have suggested wild conspiracy theories that you admit are not documented, and offered no evidence of any of your claims.

 

By comparison I've read about the history of Qutbism, the Neo-Con movement back to Leo Strauss, watched the first gulf war unfold, read Bush Srs. essay in Time Magazine as to why the invasion didn't occur at that time, agree with the material you've put forth in the other thread on the 1953 Iranian coup, studied the human rights violations by the Taliban since the early 90's, signing petitions circulated by several women's groups which were ignored by every level of government at the time, was an adult watching the news when Clinton first rocketed terrorist training camps in Afghanistan (while you were in grade 6, apparently), watched the trial of Oliver North over the Iran/Contra scandal as it unfolded - shortly after the media lost interest in the Italian Prime Minister's revelations about project gladio - witnessed, at the time on the news, the release of Iranian hostages just after Regan was elected, taking Bush Sr. on from the Director of the CIA to be his Vice President, YET...you feel that I dont' understand the 25 years of history I have watched unfold before my eyes, the dozens of books I've read specifically on this part of history of which we discuss - and you are going to write me an essay using the skills  you picked up in grade 7 to explain this all to me?

 

Hmm, even granting you every point you've been making all the way through here, including your wild conspiracy theories about 9/11, you still can't actually make a solid case that the U.S. is not an economic empire without taking some time to do a grade 7 level research essay but you are sure that it is the case anyway.  Do you EVER tire of finding ways to more thoroughly humiliate yourself in a public forum?

Permalink Reply by Charles B. on May 29, 2011 at 10:32pm

The problem is, the U.S. makes it their business to police the world (or at least the part that has oil) and suck up to money. America could take care of its own people right here at home and we here would all be so much better off.

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Permalink Reply by Sassan K. on May 30, 2011 at 4:42am

We are facing a battle for civilization. People demanding freedom all over the world is directly tied to the liberations of Afghanistan and Iraq. We must support freedom where freedom calls and I hope that when the Iranian people next rise up (within the next round of fake Presidential elections within the next 2-years) that the international community stands side by side with the Iranian people in overthrowing the barbaric and end-of-the-world prophetic regime that has occupied the once great nation of Iran. Free and democratic countries don't fight wars with one another or support terrorists. Our response and actions are just and right.

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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on May 30, 2011 at 5:30am

Your eschatologicla death cult sounds fascinating and I would like to subscribe to your news letter.

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Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on May 30, 2011 at 10:34pm

That sounds uplifting alright, but the Iraqis and Afghans don't seem so uplifted after ten years of hell. It might be cool if you could go try waving an American flag around there.

I'll still hope you're right, but when we're killing 20 times more of them than us it feels like a few months of positive trend in other countries might be all we'll get in the long run.

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Permalink Reply by Sassan K. on May 30, 2011 at 5:13am

And it is no surprise that the world's most oppressed people or those people who have been under oppression tend to be pro-American, pro-west, and pro-democracy (i.e. Iranian people, Kurdish people, former communist blocs of Eastern Europe). And one of the biggest lies people tell is that the U.S. "caused" the coupe of 1953 when it has clearly been demonstrated that the plot of that coupe was discovered by Mossadeq forces and that U.S. involvement was mainly inconsequential. The truth hurts with some of those trying to make up false facts to support their erroneous and deluded delusions.

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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on May 30, 2011 at 5:31am

Your eschatologicla death cult sounds fascinating and I would like to subscribe to your news letter.  Are you the sole prophet?

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