Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by T A A on February 28, 2011 at 6:21pm

@arcus... that's true, history often does not correct itself, it is not a scientific endeavour. To this day, hundreds of years later, reading Roman and Greek literature still needs to be through a filter. Most people recognise this, do you think USA historians are exempt from this? So exactly how many years must have passed before we're allowed to be critical of erroneous interpretations? 10 years? 50 years? 100 years 1000 years? IMO there's no time like NOW. Why wait? we have so much information technology, it is ridiculous to wait for someone else, somewhere down the line of time, to begin the process of self correction.

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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on February 28, 2011 at 3:13pm

I wasn't insinuating that the American Revolution was an American aggression, but more pointing out that it wasn't even 'American' until it was done.  Had the US not fought it then their descendants would have been obligated to take part in WWI and WWII much sooner, I suppose.

 

As far as the US-Mexican war, no one ever consulted with the Indians on the issue, so it was imperial expansion on the part of Mexico AND the USA.

 

The Philippines fell under US control through some underhanded dealings with the exiled Philippine president under the Spanish-American war, and set the stage for Japan's imperial inclination in that region - the US had no 'moral grounds' for having been in the Pacific in the first place, aside from Imperial Expansion.

 

I'll give you the 1812 war though.

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Permalink Reply by Arcus on February 28, 2011 at 3:14pm

Then I guess I rose to your challenge :)

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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on February 28, 2011 at 3:31pm

Hurrah!

Permalink Reply by Arcus on February 28, 2011 at 3:40pm

Phyrric victory ;)

Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on February 28, 2011 at 3:46pm

--- This is the third attempt to make a simple post, but for some reason it just won't format properly. ---

 

I haven't revised any historical fact.  There is simply context to the declarations.

 

----------------------------------

The Government of the United States having violated in the most flagrant manner and in ever increasing measure all rules of neutrality in favor of the adversaries of Germany and having continually been guilty of the most severe provocations toward Germany ever since the outbreak of the European war, provoked by the British declaration of war against Germany on September 3, 1939, has finally resorted to open military acts of aggression.

 

On September 11, 1941, the President of the United States publicly declared that he had ordered the American Navy and Air Force to shoot on sight at any 

German war vessel. In his speech of October 27, 1941, he once more expressly affirmed that this order was in force. Acting under this order, vessels of the American Navy, since early September 1941, have systematically attacked German naval forces. Thus, American destroyers, as for instance the Greer, the Kearney and the Reuben James, have opened fire on German sub-marines according to plan. The Secretary of the American Navy, Mr. Knox, himself confirmed that-American destroyers attacked German submarines.

 

 

Furthermore, the naval forces of the United States, under order of their Government and contrary to international law have treated and seized German merchant vessels on the high seas as enemy ships.

 

The German Government therefore establishes the following facts:

 

Although Germany on her part has strictly adhered to the rules of international law in her relations with the United States during every period of the present war, the Government of the United States from initial violations of neutrality has finally proceeded to open acts of war against Germany. The Government of the United States has thereby virtually created a state of war.

 

The German Government, consequently, discontinues diplomatic relations with the United States of America and declares that under these circumstances brought about by President Roosevelt Germany too, as from today, considers herself as being in a state of war with the United States of America.

 

Accept, Mr. Charge d'Affaires, the expression of my high consideration.

 

December 11, 1941.

RIBBENTROP.

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source

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Arcus on February 28, 2011 at 4:14pm

The submarines were sinking US vessels (sometimes in US waters) and were therefore violating international maritime agreements and custom. The US were therefore within their right to shoot on sight and to sink German submarines. The US is allowed to choose allegiances without being part of the war, just like Spain and Portugal did. I cannot recall Spanish and Portugese ships being sunk by the British, though it may well have happened, but there were no declration of war.

Again, the casus belli and declaration of war are the most important parts of the historical interpretation of war and to assign responsibility. 

In a newer interpretation, the casus belli given by the US for the 2003 war on Iraq was WMDs, which is accepted as legitimate by the international society (WMDs, not necessarily the casus belli). It was very weak evidence for this casus belli, and currently many are using the fact that no WMDs were found as a claim that the war was illegitimate (without casus belli). However, this is historical revisionism as one must way the evidence available at the time of casus belli, not what is discovered later.

This is why the allied powers could not use the persecution of Jews as a post hoc excuse for the war against the Axis, because the gross violations of human rights committed are not viewed as being available at the time. It is also why Lincoln could, since the issue was brought forth as a justification during the war.

History has certain 'rules' which must be followed, just like any other type of higher learning. Disobeying these rules is the same as violating the scientific method.

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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on February 28, 2011 at 4:26pm

And when nations flagrantly violate 'rules' by fabricating the intelligence they use as justification of war, what does that constitute other than a war crime?  Very few nations saw any justification in the WMD argument - which, as it turns out, was not just flimsy but was also false.

Permalink Reply by Arcus on February 28, 2011 at 4:52pm

The evidence wasn't fabricated, there aren't any serious evidence that they willfully did. There may be in the future, which will then uncover a huge conspiracy not yet accepted as a known historical conspiracy. There may be vast historical conspiracies which we don't know about, but the starting point is that it is not a conspiracy, and that the official history is true.

From a scientific point of view, you are starting with a theory which is saying that official history is false, and that alternative history is correct, and true to prove your null hypothesis instead of falsifying the alternative. You have to try to prove yourself incorrect, not the other way round.

Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on February 28, 2011 at 4:58pm

As far as the topic of this discussion is concerned, it's quite clear that--whether you consider "evidence" of WMDs fake or not--justification for war/invasion needs a much higher level of proof than what was accepted. This is especially true when there is evidence that the administration was looking for ways to invade, even before the WMDs excuse. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and all that.

In fact, there was NO evidence, but faith in unreliable sources.

Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on February 28, 2011 at 5:08pm

And to back up Paul's statement, just read Colin Powell's testimony.

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jQMVO8FHyB_x9-hK...

Permalink Reply by Arcus on February 28, 2011 at 5:14pm

Paul, the current justification for war is getting passed the UN security council. The history books go something like this (I don't remember the exact course of events): The US layed out it's evidence, much like a trial by jury, in front of the UN. They then deliberated, and, if i recall correctly, voted it down. But the margin was not big enough, in as far as i can recall, to give the US a clear mandate NOT to go to war.

The US therefore went to war on a very weak foundation, which caused dissent. Later, when WMDs were not found, this was used as a further evidence that the war was unfounded. However, at the time of invasion, enough countries believed in the evidence for the US to take it as a mandate. But since there is no proof (yet) that the evidence was fake, we cannot conclude that it was. We can argue if the US had mandate enough to go to war, but the evidence was certainly enough to convince some countries. So at that time, all countries that voted for were part of the decision, and must therefore be given equal guilt.

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