Material/physical science could confirm or eliminate various religious claims that should be detected in the material world.

When the Hindu claims that a certain mountain range in India is actually a huge snake under the surface, science can falsify that. If the revealed portion of their religion demands that the snake hypothesis is true, then that "revelation" is false and the Hindu is in a dilemma if he wants to keep his view.

The Christian example of a 6,000-year universe is a case wherein the revealed portion of the religion does not demand a "young earth" view. Since the Hebrew language in Genesis allows (and seems to indicate in places) an old universe, the Christian can embrace that view in keeping with the evidence.

If tomorrow we discovered indisputably that the universe is only 6 to 10 - thousand years old (that ain't gonna happen), I would shrug my shoulders and say I guess the young-earth view was correct! It's not an essential of the Christian Faith but is a peripheral issue.

But in what way could the science you're talking about detect God himself? If God exists, he is immaterial, timeless, and spaceless, etc.  Science is therefore limited to investigating vestiges or indications of God predicted by theism or the revealed portion of the religion(s), but then any speculations as to what can be inferred by scientific studies moves out of the realm of science per se, and into the realm of philosophy.

So what are some things that Christian Theism would affirm or predict according to both Natural Theology and Revealed Theology that science could investigate? Examples would be:

  • A finite universe.
  • Widespread belief in God or an ontologically ultimate being.
  • An enduring "religious" interest and nature innate in every culture.
  • Intricate design in the universe from the Big Bang to biological systems.
  • Widespread belief in objective moral values and duties.
  • Archeological discoveries of sites and artifacts crucial to the claims of Christianity.
  • Historical confirmations and indications of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

Secondly, even if certain scientific discoveries lead to considerations that God exists, it requires further philosophical/theological speculation as to which of the World Religions has the best candidate for God.

Finally, as a Christian Theist, I think scientific discovery will progressively confirm the following predictions:

  • Continual confirmation of cosmological models that require an absolute beginning (even in the case of multi-verses or oscillation).
  • Neurological studies that indicate mind and brain interact but are distinct to the extent that mind is not reducible to brain (or physical components).
  • Further discoveries of conditions and constants in the Big Bang itself that are fine-tuned for intelligent life.
  • No discoveries will conclusively overturn the historical and archeological confirmations supporting the origins of Christianity, but will continue to affirm it.

 

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You spend much verbiage describing things that are untrue. I suggest you get a reference on quantum mechanics and you will see how things can be in several conditions at once. Read Hawkings latest and you will see that going from nothing to something is not only possible but inevitable. As all religious people do, you cherry pick that which supports your agenda and ignore or distort the rest. You use the language of science to make unscientific assertions. I am done with you. You are another of the lost, blind, and deluded.
Immaterial, timeless, and spaceless is a lot like non existent.
That takes out things like propositions, ideas, relations, numbers, and the laws of logic.

Oh dear... First off, science is philosophy, to be precise it is a subset of epistemology which relies wholly on empiricism and logic. Trying to separate the two shows a lack of understanding of either.

 

Now on to your claims.

  • A finite universe.
    • If the universe is finite (which isn't really under debate) this is not proof of god any more than the world being round is proof of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
  • Widespread belief in God or an ontologically ultimate being.
    • Argument ad populum. Simply because a lot of people think something doesn't mean it is true.
  • An enduring "religious" interest and nature innate in every culture.
    • Here you have to mince words. Define "enduring," define "innate," define "religion." The pluralism of religious and ritualistic beliefs across cultures only provide more of a problem for those who wish to prove their God exists.
  • Intricate design in the universe from the Big Bang to biological systems.
    • Define design. The failed ID arguments will always rest on false analogies of watches and paintings, things which we can observe being created. If I were someone who knew nothing of technology I would not assume a watch I found was created.
  • Widespread belief in objective moral values and duties.
    • Again, ad populum. Widespread belief in objective morals does not mean that they are true, what about widespread belief in subjective morality? How about how various cultures which have objective morals that are at odds with one another?
  • Archeological discoveries of sites and artifacts crucial to the claims of Christianity.
    • Do you mean like how the city of Nazareth didn't exist during the first century CE?
    • Do you mean like how cultic remains have been unearthed showing that Israelites were polytheists until at least the first temple period?
    • Do you mean like how there are archaeological ruins dating to well before the flood?
    • Do you mean like how there are no accounts of any of the miracles of Jesus during to his lifetime?
    • Do you mean like how there is no contemporary historical record of the events of Matthew 27:45-53, not of the eclipse, nor of the temple curtain being torn in two, nor of the earthquake, nor of the saints rising from their graves?
    • Do you mean like how there are neither Roman nor Judean records of the arrest, trial or execution of Jesus?
  • Historical confirmations and indications of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.
    • Will never happen. There are no historical documents which make up any first hand accounts of the life, death or resurrection of Jesus. The existence of an historical Jesus is based on assumed historiographical claims. To think otherwise is to fundamentally misunderstand the study of history.
  • Continual confirmation of cosmological models that require an absolute beginning (even in the case of multi-verses or oscillation).
    • No valid cosmological model to date has required a deity to explain anything.
  • Neurological studies that indicate mind and brain interact but are distinct to the extent that mind is not reducible to brain (or physical components).
    • Would be interesting minus the studies showing the exact opposite. Pharmacology is an entire field of study based on the fact that the mind is a product of brain chemistry.
  • Further discoveries of conditions and constants in the Big Bang itself that are fine-tuned for intelligent life.
    • Further? Leading argument much?
  • No discoveries will conclusively overturn the historical and archeological confirmations supporting the origins of Christianity, but will continue to affirm it.
    • You mean like the ones I provided last time you brought up archaeology?
Well said Kenneth. I find it amusing when theist try to cherry pick science out of the vast findings of many scientist to find what they think might support their arguments.
An addendum. The complete absence of evidence that the Jewish people were enslaved by the Egyptians, that the 10 plagues ever happened, that they escaped, or that they spent a few decades wandering in the desert. In short, the evidence is against the entire Exodus story having ever happened.
Kevin, please take me off your e-mail list. Thanks.
Jack, not sure how to do that. I just receive emails if there is a reply to this thread. Let me know what I can do. Thanks,
Jack, at the bottom of each page in this thread should be a 'Stop following' link. Click on that and you'll stop getting emails when people reply.

Of all the posts by theists, this one bugs me the most. With the others, the ignorance & stubbornness of the posters is easily seen. Here it is hidden under the guise of intelligence.

What I've gathered from your posts is that you have twisted, what little knowledge you have of science, around your beliefs & now are convinced that science is on your side.

Science doesn't have all the answers, but given enough time, it can find them. Things, which in the past, were mystical have been conclusively explained by science. Rain, thunder, lightening all explained & now can even be forecasted. Hurricanes, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, disease outbreak, famine are no longer considered the wrath of god. Earth isn't flat, nor is it the center of the universe. Solar & lunar eclipses, no, the body less head of a demon doesn't swallow the sun & moon to cause eclipses(from Hinduism). Even things that people never thought about or questioned, like why do we stay on the ground & not float into the sky, have been answered.

Now lets focus on what you have posted.

Hindu claims that a certain mountain range in India is actually a huge snake under the surface

Nope, no one claims that or if they do, it must a local legend. Get your facts right before posting.

The Christian example of a 6,000-year universe is a case wherein the revealed portion of the religion does not demand a "young earth" view. Since the Hebrew language in Genesis allows (and seems to indicate in places) an old universe, the Christian can embrace that view in keeping with the evidence.

So you're saying that the bible contradicts itself? Not a very reliable religious book is it?

Science is therefore limited to investigating vestiges or indications of God predicted by theism or the revealed portion of the religion(s)

The goal of science isn't to disprove god, its just an unintended side-effect. An example would be that Galileo wasn't trying to check the bible's assertion that Earth is the center of the universe & everything revolves around it, astronomy just interested him. People research because a) they are curious b) want the fame & fortune from any breakthrough they make c) its a job or d) a combination of a, b and/or c.

any speculations as to what can be inferred by scientific studies moves out of the realm of science per se, and into the realm of philosophy.

erm, no. With all the advancements made in physics in particle physics, quantum physics, string theory etc can you really say that it won't fall in the realm of science?

Widespread belief in God or an ontologically ultimate being.

People needed something to explain things they couldn't understand. Religion/god did that & the belief was passed down to future generations as tradition.

An enduring "religious" interest and nature innate in every culture.

Aren't you forgetting how religion has evolved through time? From being multi-theistic with a god for pretty much everything to being mono-theistic with one supreme god. Now the newer religions(mormonism & scientology) have incorporated some science fiction in them. Also, religions evolve to fit the moral values of the time. Its no longer okay to beat your kids. Sati(hinduism), the practice of burning a widow alive, in her husbands pyre during cremation is no longer okay. Human sacrifice would get you corporal punishment or a padded cell. Even animal sacrifice is frowned upon. Other religions are respected more. I could go on.

Widespread belief in objective moral values and duties.

Science can define human values. Read "The Moral Landscape" by Sam Harris.

Archeological discoveries of sites and artifacts crucial to the claims of Christianity.

Archeological evidence doesn't prove much. Claims could have been doctored around already existing landscapes, cities etc. Take for example The Ramayana. It says Ram & his ape army crossed from India to Sri Lanka by building a bridge with stones blessed by one of the apes who had the gift to make stones float on water. Now archeological evidence for that would be the  Adam's Bridge. But what it is, according to NASA, is just naturally occurring chain of sandbanks. But that didn't stop the religious crazies to claim it as 'scientific evidence' supporting the events in the ramayana.

Historical confirmations and indications of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

Similar to the last explanation. 

Continual confirmation of cosmological models that require an absolute beginning (even in the case of multi-verses or oscillation).

That doesn't have anything to do with the existence of god.

No discoveries will conclusively overturn the historical and archeological confirmations supporting the origins of Christianity, but will continue to affirm it.

Earlier you said "even if certain scientific discoveries lead to considerations that God exists, it requires further philosophical/theological speculation as to which of the World Religions has the best candidate for God." and now you say that Christianity will be given the scientific seal of approval. Hey, not only does your bible contradict itself, you do contradict yourself too :P

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Great comment. But I am afraid that our dear OP will not address this similarly to how he didn't address my rebuttal which went point by point.

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