***[Moderator Note] Pahu is no longer a member of Think Atheist. If you would like to add your thoughts to this thread, that is your prerogative; however, the original poster is not able to respond.[/Moderator Note]***
When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing. We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law, we can use the following logic:
1. The universe exists.
2. The universe had a beginning.
3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.
4. Since there was no universe, there was nothing.
5. Since the universe does exist, it came from nothing.
6. Nothing comes from nothing by any natural cause.
7. Therefore the cause of the universe is supernatural.
8. Life exists.
9. Life always comes from pre-existing life of the same kind (the Law of Biogenesis).
10. Life cannot come from nonliving matter by any natural cause.
11. Since life does exist, the cause of life is supernatural.
Many people with a naturalistic worldview assume everything can be explained by natural causes. From the beginning, they reject the possibility of a supernatural cause. Because of this they are left with no scientifically valid answers to the question of how the universe could come from nothing, which is impossible by any natural cause of which we are aware. Many answers have been proposed that go beyond the realm of known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation and therefore enter the realm of fiction.
The same logic applies to life. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that life only comes from pre-existing life of the same kind.
[color=blue][i]“Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the Law of Biogenesis. Evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes”[/color][/i] [[url=http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/]From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown[/url]]
Life never comes from non-living matter by any natural cause of which we are aware.
Now that we have seen proof that God exists, using logic based on known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we need to see if He has revealed Himself to us. In the Holy Bible there are hundreds of prophecies given by God who is speaking in the first person. In both Bible and secular history we find that those prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. No other writing on earth comes close to doing this! Only God can accurately reveal the future, ergo, He is the author of the Holy Bible. Within the pages of the Holy Bible He reveals His nature, our nature, His relationship to us, our need for salvation and His plan of salvation for us.
The reason the universe and life cannot come from nothing by any natural cause, but can come from a supernatural cause is because God is the self-existent creator of everything and everyone. He is not subject to His creation. He created it and sustains it. It is a mistake to judge God by human standards and human perspectives. God reveals that He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
If you are interested in more detailed proof, read, [i]“Evidence that Demands a Verdict”[/i] by Josh McDowell.
[[url=http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000005147#] From “Reincarnation in the Bible?” [/url]]
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The bible is an interpretation by a HUMAN. Even if it is an interpretation of the "word of god", it still fails in every way. Mistakes, contradictions, and inconsistancies are found everywhere within it's pages.
(you can look these up to prove their validity, should you care about your religion)
If only you had a better source of information...
You will find answers to your Bible questions here:
Pahu, are you suggesting that the Bible be used as a source of information? Until evidence is presented pointing otherwise, it is little more than a story book!
So many things wrong with this I don't know where to start.
1.) We do NOT know that the universe did not exist prior to the "Big Bang". There was an event that caused our Universe to expand. That does not say that it did not exist before. Only that it was not expanding. New theories like M-Theory show that the Universe, along with many others most likely did exist prior to the Big Bang.
2.) There is no law stating that life cannot come from non-life. This is also an assumption that you have the correct classification for what life is. The RNA world theory has a lot of support now in the field of Abiogenesis. Most pieces of the RNA strand have been shown to form naturally by simulating the early Earths atmosphere in a lab. These RNA molecules cause the accumulation of proteins and can be self replicating. Certain strands of RNA are more likely to accumulate proteins and replicate allowing NAtural selection to take place.
3.) If we do assume there was "nothing". The other thing you have to answer is how God existed during the time of "Nothing" and what was he doing. He had nothing to think about since there was nothing to think about. He had no memories to remember since there was nothing to remember. He would have been wasting an eternity doing nothing in a world of nothing. This makes no sense to me at all.
You're premise is picking the things we do not yet have concrete answers for and providing a supernatural cause for them. This is wishful thinking at best.
#3 is unknown and quite likely is unknowable. Therefore, your argument fails before it even gets close to its conclusion.
I attended a Christian school for 13 years. It was non-denominational, I too did not like the organisation of what I (at the time) viewed as what god really wanted us to do. After all the early christians were small groups in caves all beleiving and fellowshiping with one another.
So just after HS I was baptised and attended church on occasion. But didn't view it as neccasary to be close to god. I then wanted to really research why I beleived what I did (I've always been skepticle) And after researching for the better half of a year (about 6 months) I came to realise the discrepencies, historical gaps, and genuine philosophical disposition of this god's morality is very different from mine.
If you want my opinion try researching outside of christian/theistic documents. (if you already haven't)
>"After all the early christians were small groups in caves all beleiving and fellowshiping with one another."
You have researched the history of early Christianity in the meantime, right? There were many different sects who believed widely divergent things. Many of them mixed Christianity with earlier religions and many of them were labeled as heretics and oppressed or wiped out.
Appalled is an understatement, Steve has the sect of history correct, why would any secular, atheist, humanist etc... no be appalled? Look at the history of all the so called religious prophets: Look at the similarities, Coincidence? o.k. its you who subscribes to this BS
Hebrew book of Fables says in the asinine book of Genesis that on the 1st day god created light, good job I guess the Sun didn't produce light for 3 days since he created the Sun on the 4th day! In Exodus 20:2-3 the 1st commandment god tells moses “You shall have no other gods before Me.” which I take to mean 2 things gods is plural, so even god thinks there are other gods, and 2nd that god is a jealous narcissistic SOB! All these different religions with the same damn text can't agree on anything! History shows god has had many sons where are all of them now? which ones should we care about, fucking amazing they are all born on December 25th, ig:
Phrygian born of a virgin Dec. 25th, a savior, his body used as bread and eaten by worshipers, Black Friday crucified on a tree, and resurrected on March 25th
Buddha was also born of a virgin on Dec. 25th was attended by a "Star of Announcement" with wise men and angels, on his bday was pronounced ruler of the world, given jewels and other precious substances, he also like Jesus crushed a serpents head, he was tempted by Mara the "Evil One" when fasting, he was baptized in H2O with the "spirit of god" and "holy ghost" present, he performed miracles, healed the sick, and walked on water, he preached righteousness and his followers took vows of poverty, he was transfigured on a mount, died on a cross, was resurrected, his covering unrolled from his body and his tomb opened by supernatural powers, he ascended into heaven, he was called lord, master, light of the world, god of gods, almighty, redeemer of all, omnipotent, eternal one etc...
he was considered the good shepherd and the carpenter and he is to return to judge the dead. this all happened 500 years before Christ from christianity
Dionysus also born on Dec 25th of a virgin and the holy child, also traveled as a teacher performing miracles, he was a sacred king killed and eaten as an eucharistic ritual, he also rose from the dead on March 25th, he turned water into wine, called king of kings & god of gods, he was considered the one begotten son, savior redeemer, from the center of Jerusalem and was worshiped by the Jews.
Hercules born of a virgin, also know as only begotten he was sacrificed on the spring equinox Easter, and born on the winter solstice Christmas
Osiris which contributed to more of christianity than anyone wants to admit, he had over 200 divine names, he suffered died and also rose again and reigned eternally in heaven, his flesh was also eaten, Psalm 23 in the hebrew book of fables most likely came from Osiris' deeds. Ironically the teachings of jesus and Osiris are almost identical.
Horus or Osiris's son, also born on Dec 25th of a virgin, his birth being announced by a star in the east and attended by 3 wise men, his earthly father was Joseph, at age 12 he was a teacher, and age 30 was baptized, just like Jesus we lost track of those 18 FUCKING years!!! baptized by Anup the baptizer or John the baptist, wow amazing he had 12 disciples, he performed miracles too, he also walked on water, was called holy child, he was transfigured on the mount, was crucified between two thieves, buried for 3 days and also resurrected. He was called messiah, son of man, good shepherd, god's annointed son, etc....
Krishna also born of a virgin on Dec 25th the divine one, father a carpenter, birth was signaled by a star in the east and attended by angels and presented with spices, was persecuted a tyrant, healed people, depicted of having his foot on the head of a serpent, he worked miracles and wonders, raising the dead and healing lepers,the deaf and blind, preached about charity and love, and lived poor life, he had disciples, favorite was John, he was transfigured in front of his disciples, he gave his disciples ability to work miracles, he died on a tree, crucified between 2 thieves, he rose from the dead, ascended into heaven at the age of around 30! Depicted on cross with nail holes in feet as well as having heart emblem on his clothing, he was called Shepherd God, redeemer, first born, was deemed the son of god and our lord and savior who came to earth to die for our salvation, he was the 2nd person of the trinity, his disciples bestowed upon him the title of Jezeus meaning pure essence, and he is to return to judge the dead riding on a white horse to do battle with the prince of evil will desolate the earth. This is recorded back in 800BCE hmmm way before Christ/.Jesus wtf ever you want to call him.
Mithra lets go way back now, and ancient god found both in Persia and India and predates christianity by thousands of years. Pagan religion of the era. It is one of the oldest religious systems on earth, but it seems to be the greatest challenge to christianity, born on Dec. 25th of virgin birth in a cave, and attended by shepherds bearing gifts, he was considered traveling teacher and master, he had 12 disciples, his followers promised immortality, he performed miracles, sacrificed himself for world peace, was buried in a tomb after 3 days rose from the dead, his resurrection was celebrated every year, was called good shepherd, savior, messiah, his sacred day was Sunday, the lords day, hundreds of years before christ, Mithra has a principle festival on what is now easter, his religion had a eucharist or lords supper of which Mithra said "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved" his annual sacrifice is the passover of the Magi, a symbolic atonement or pledge of moral and physical regeneration. Further more the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra and the christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithriac version it replaced, Paul of christianity (1 Cor. 10:4) "They drank from that spiritual rock and that rock was christ" this is identical to the Mithraic scriptures except the name Mithra was replaced with christ. The vatican hill in rome that is regarded sacred to Peter, the christian rock, was already sacred Mithra and many Mithraic remains have been found there. The Fact that legendary home of Paul, Taurus, was the site of Mithra worship. The Catholic Encyclopedia states "The fathers conducted the worship. The Chief of the fathers, a sort of pope who always lived at Rome, was called Pater Patratus" The Mithraic pope was called Papa or Pontimus Maximus.
I could keep going on and on and on about all the saviors of religions, that all resemble each other, there are a plethora of writings of over 35 that are nearly identical to christ. Astrology plays an important piece in the fucked up puzzle of lies, myths and miracles, of modern christianity, the astrological symbols and zodiacs alone plastered all over many cathedrals and churches, take Norte Dame in Paris for instance. I can write all day about magical flying monkey in the sky!
So I am sick of hearing about religions there are ZERO FACTS! Just a mythological bunch of BS just look at the similarities and there are plenty more to choose from! Keep your faith away from education, science and history, all you religious nut jobs need to think for yourself, read the atrocities of the bible, and intelligibly think about morals, because they logically cannot ever come from the bible! Do you actually believe everything you hear? So it seems that all religions of the world preach the same BS and everyone seems just to believe because of faith or just ignorance, or maybe because they placed fear into you! Like they know anything that happens to you when you die? Right? We can leave the "FREEWILL" & the "SOUL" for another time, but since if you think you have one maybe your human life isn't as valuable as every other living thing on earth since christians think only humans have souls and can have an eternal life, so to me that gives more rights to ANIMALS than to humans since they don't have souls they won't got to your mythological heaven, and you will in your belief system so they have more of a right to live a happier life on earth than YOU!
These are just some examples of how idiotic religions are and why they should not interfere with politics science and with how I live my life!
I am my own God & Christ is the other white meat!
Now I can go have my dinner!