***[Moderator Note] Pahu is no longer a member of Think Atheist.  If you would like to add your thoughts to this thread, that is your prerogative; however, the original poster is not able to respond.[/Moderator Note]***

When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing. We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law, we can use the following logic:


1. The universe exists.

2. The universe had a beginning.

3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.

4. Since there was no universe, there was nothing.

5. Since the universe does exist, it came from nothing.

6. Nothing comes from nothing by any natural cause.

7. Therefore the cause of the universe is supernatural.

8. Life exists.

9. Life always comes from pre-existing life of the same kind (the Law of Biogenesis).

10. Life cannot come from nonliving matter by any natural cause.

11. Since life does exist, the cause of life is supernatural.


Many people with a naturalistic worldview assume everything can be explained by natural causes. From the beginning, they reject the possibility of a supernatural cause. Because of this they are left with no scientifically valid answers to the question of how the universe could come from nothing, which is impossible by any natural cause of which we are aware. Many answers have been proposed that go beyond the realm of known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation and therefore enter the realm of fiction.


The same logic applies to life. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that life only comes from pre-existing life of the same kind.


[color=blue][i]“Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the Law of Biogenesis. Evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes”[/color][/i] [[url=http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/]From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown[/url]]


Life never comes from non-living matter by any natural cause of which we are aware.


Now that we have seen proof that God exists, using logic based on known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we need to see if He has revealed Himself to us. In the Holy Bible there are hundreds of prophecies given by God who is speaking in the first person. In both Bible and secular history we find that those prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. No other writing on earth comes close to doing this! Only God can accurately reveal the future, ergo, He is the author of the Holy Bible. Within the pages of the Holy Bible He reveals His nature, our nature, His relationship to us, our need for salvation and His plan of salvation for us.


The reason the universe and life cannot come from nothing by any natural cause, but can come from a supernatural cause is because God is the self-existent creator of everything and everyone. He is not subject to His creation. He created it and sustains it. It is a mistake to judge God by human standards and human perspectives. God reveals that He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.


If you are interested in more detailed proof, read, [i]“Evidence that Demands a Verdict”[/i] by Josh McDowell.


[[url=http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000005147#] From “Reincarnation in the Bible?” [/url]]


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Replies to This Discussion

Reply by Stephen Walski

What kind of twisted logic goes on in a head, that spends most of a post claiming that something cannot come from nothing and must have a cause, and then in the last sentence proposes a being without cause or measurable substance (the very definition of nothing).


Pahu: The logic is quite simple and straight. The universe is physical, God is spiritual.

The universe exists.  Is it eternal or did it have a beginning?  It could not be eternal since that would mean that an infinite amount of time had to be crossed to get to the present.  But, you cannot cross an infinite amount of time (otherwise it wouldn't be infinite).  Therefore, the universe had a beginning.  Something cannot bring itself into existence.  Therefore, something brought it into existence. 


What brought the universe into existence?  It would have to be greater than the universe and be a sufficient cause to it.  The Bible promotes this sufficient cause as God.  What does atheism offer instead of God?  If nothing, then atheism is not able to account for our own existence. 


The universe cannot be infinitely old or all useable energy would have been lost already (entropy).  This has not occurred.  Therefore, the universe is not infinitely old.

Saying god is spiritual is exactly the same as saying.. blah blah is blah blah.


Neither words have any more meaning than what is assigned to them by dittoheaded fairy tale worshippers.


Heather has already more then sufficiently explained sub atomic theories to you explaining the commonly held quantum theory that indeed the universe can spring from nothing due to negative energy and the nature of gravity.


As for what atheist put forth .. your right we put forth only one thing. We dont believe in fairy tales. Not a single other thing is an atheist ideal at ALL. It doesnt matter the nature of the universe, time, energy, or matter.. the only thing that matters is we find the idea of a spiritual supernatural being to have no merit, no basis in fact and the idea to be rantings an ravings of mental patients who are only out of the shackled mental hospitals they belong in because they can find other nutjobs to back up their story and continue to indoctrinate other generations to perpetually keep their neurosis alive.


Someday we will wise up and the DSM will include religious delusion as a mental disorder as it should be.

Reply by Stephen Walski

Saying god is spiritual is exactly the same as saying.. blah blah is blah blah.


Neither words have any more meaning than what is assigned to them by dittoheaded fairy tale worshippers.


Heather has already more then sufficiently explained sub atomic theories to you explaining the commonly held quantum theory that indeed the universe can spring from nothing due to negative energy and the nature of gravity.


Pahu: The information I have shared proving God exists and is the Author of the Bible is based on known laws of physics, biology, causality, and archaeology and hundreds of accurately fulfilled prophecies. 

You claim you don't believe in fairy tales and yet you base your beliefs on speculation that quantum theory somehow proves the universe could have come from nothing. Brilliant!


In a world where a miracle-working God is deemed an anachronism, he is replaced by an even greater miracle-worker: time or chance. I say these twin miracle-workers are greater than God because they produce the same result with so much less, indeed infinitely less, to work with.


God is conceived as a self-existent, eternal being who possesses intrinsically the power of being. Such power is a sufficient cause for creation. Time and chance have no being, and consequently no power. Yet they are able to be so effective as to render God an anachronism. At least with God we have a potential miracle-worker. With chance we have nothing with which to work the miracle. Chance offers us a rabbit without a hat and-what's even more astonishing without a magician.


Hume strongly asserts:


“It is universally allowed that nothing exists without a cause of its existence, and that chance, when strictly examined, is a mere negative word, and means not any real power, which has anywhere a being in nature.” [David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Great Books in Philosophy (Buffalo: Prometheus, 1988), P.88 (Sec. 8, pt.1)]


Science and philosophy use the formal law of causality in their spheres of investigation as an extension of the law of noncontradiction. Assumptions are made about effects, and then searches are undertaken for sufficient causes of those effects. Physicians search for "causes" of diseases and causes of medical healing.


The law of inertia is a case in point. It is usually defined this way: A body at rest tends to remain at rest unless acted on by an outside force. A body in motion tends to remain in motion unless acted on by and outside force.


[excerpts from "Not a Chance" by R.C. Sproul]

Even if universe brought into existence by some power, how does it help the people to solve the real world problems? What is the influence of that power in our life's?

If such power really had created the universe, why did it create the universe as rock, dust, and gas...etc, why it did not create earth as livable planet few million years ago... 

YES... science proves the Hindu Cosmology and some yogic systems are much closer than Christianity to what we actually observe...   No need to fight about the age of the universe... No need to fight about evolution...  Their God and Universe are big enough to handle those problems.  Their system is also much more compassionate as it allows for the possibility of future spiritual growth for even the worst of us.


I still see no reason to think they are correct....but I have to admit they are closer than the literalistic young earth creationist set.

Nah, the best way to shut him up is to prove that his first cause argument is false - done, and he hasn't come up with a response yet.  Too bad, so sad.

I think Pahu honestly believes that all our evidence and logic doesn't DISPROVE his God , so he feels entitled to continue believing in it ... he also keeps using circular arguments by referring back to the bible even when we show the bible is contradictory and false in many ways.  


Proof of the flood? A piece of rag that proves jesus? What are you smoking?

You're an expert on how the bible's supposed to be read? It's a fucking book, you read it like a book. It's not a puzzle.

Proof of the flood. Man there isn't enough water on the planet to cover up Mt. Everest.

And you expect 2 of all species to fit on a rickety boat & then co-exist and survive for months? 

That is just absurd. How can anyone be stupid enough to believe that nonsense?

Applause for Akshay! Thank you for stepping up to the plate and hitting a home run with theists that have chosen to ignore facts try to blah blah their nonsense on this forum.

I always laugh at this "You need to be an expert", "I studied the Bible/Koran" or "I have a degree in theology" lines. If you need a university degree to actually understand a book, what does that say about the book? You'd think the Supreme Creator of the fucking universe could write a book that's obvious and clearly understood. One that it isn't dependent on lingual intricacies and historical context.

Or more importantly, why bother with a book at all? Just implant the knowledge in people's minds directly. Then everyone knew the rules and everyone knew he'd exist

Yeah but if He implanted that knowledge then people wouldn't follow the right (hand) path of their own free volition, with nothing to base this choice on than a self contradictory set of hand picked texts that arose as a product of the theological and political preferences of the winning faction of early proto-catholic infighting. He might have foreseen, being able to predict the future with absolute certainty that it would mess up the plan. The plan being to pointlessly send off the large majority of the smug bastards created in His image to eternally suffer for arbitrary transgressions in a place that however unbelievable seems rather attractive when compared to what He prepared for the supposedly lucky ones.

The bible is a load of unverifiable bullshit only about as historically accurate as the great gatsby


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