***[Moderator Note] Pahu is no longer a member of Think Atheist.  If you would like to add your thoughts to this thread, that is your prerogative; however, the original poster is not able to respond.[/Moderator Note]***

When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing. We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law, we can use the following logic:

 

1. The universe exists.

2. The universe had a beginning.

3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.

4. Since there was no universe, there was nothing.

5. Since the universe does exist, it came from nothing.

6. Nothing comes from nothing by any natural cause.

7. Therefore the cause of the universe is supernatural.

8. Life exists.

9. Life always comes from pre-existing life of the same kind (the Law of Biogenesis).

10. Life cannot come from nonliving matter by any natural cause.

11. Since life does exist, the cause of life is supernatural.

 

Many people with a naturalistic worldview assume everything can be explained by natural causes. From the beginning, they reject the possibility of a supernatural cause. Because of this they are left with no scientifically valid answers to the question of how the universe could come from nothing, which is impossible by any natural cause of which we are aware. Many answers have been proposed that go beyond the realm of known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation and therefore enter the realm of fiction.

 

The same logic applies to life. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that life only comes from pre-existing life of the same kind.

 

[color=blue][i]“Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the Law of Biogenesis. Evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes”[/color][/i] [[url=http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/]From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown[/url]]

 

Life never comes from non-living matter by any natural cause of which we are aware.

 

Now that we have seen proof that God exists, using logic based on known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we need to see if He has revealed Himself to us. In the Holy Bible there are hundreds of prophecies given by God who is speaking in the first person. In both Bible and secular history we find that those prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. No other writing on earth comes close to doing this! Only God can accurately reveal the future, ergo, He is the author of the Holy Bible. Within the pages of the Holy Bible He reveals His nature, our nature, His relationship to us, our need for salvation and His plan of salvation for us.

 

The reason the universe and life cannot come from nothing by any natural cause, but can come from a supernatural cause is because God is the self-existent creator of everything and everyone. He is not subject to His creation. He created it and sustains it. It is a mistake to judge God by human standards and human perspectives. God reveals that He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

 

If you are interested in more detailed proof, read, [i]“Evidence that Demands a Verdict”[/i] by Josh McDowell.

 

[[url=http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000005147#] From “Reincarnation in the Bible?” [/url]]

 

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Replies to This Discussion

>"But, it seems, you will refuse to be threatened by science."

 

What you are posting is not science, It's bullshit. I won't waste my time with reading Creationist crap anymore. There are hundreds of people out there who have already demonstrated why it's wrong. I can think of many more enjoyable ways to kill braincells.

 

I refuse to dignify Creationism by debating it. That only gives it validity. In fact it's insanity and it's telling that this insanity is by far the most widespread in the US.

 

As for the starlight crap: so you're a YEC? That's even more idiotic and comes solely from blindly believing in the insane ramblings written down thousands of years ago by a bunch of primitive desert goat herders. If you have to believe in a god, at least have the intellectual integrity to say that the Bible isn't all true and that the universe is indeed 13.7 billion years old. And suddenly you don't have to say "I don't know" about that anymore.

 

You're lying about that anyways. What you may mean is "Intelligent Design". ID is just Creationism wrapped up in nicer paper. There were a couple of court rulings that banned the teaching of Creationism in school. So they deliberately left out the God stuff. But the implication is still there of course. No one says "I don't know". They say "I won't tell you, but *wink* *wink*". Or why else are all its proponents fundamentalist or evangelical Christians?

it doesn't matter where it appeared, if its crap its crap.

Did you miss the part where creationism isn't science? It's pseudoscience at best. Therefor we don't have to debate it.

 

Science looks at observations and comes up with a way to explain them that's self-consistent, reproducible and falsifiable.

Creationism starts with a desired conclusion and then twists and warp the facts around to sort of fit the wanted outcome while hoping that no one looks to closely, or more likely has the intellectual capacity to find the flaws. And of course the Christian god isn't falsifiable. There is not even a proper definition of it.

Reply by Rev. Chris Pagan yesterday

I'm sorry, but you are mistaken when you say that the only two options are abiogenesis or a creator did it. Panspermia is another theory of how life started here. If you google "theories on origin of life," you end up with close to 6 million hits, so to say that there are only two possibilities is grossly mistaken.

 

Pahu: My conclusions are based on known facts. Pansperrmia is an idea that was imagined by those who could not accept the fact that life did not originate on earth from non-living matter.

Francis Crick, a Nobel Prize winner and the co-discoverer of the DNA molecule, did not give up. He reasoned that if life could not have evolved on earth, it must have evolved somewhere else in our galaxy and been transported to earth—an old theory called panspermia. Just how life evolved on a distant planet is never explained. Crick proposed directed panspermia—that an advanced civilization sent bacteria to earth. Crick (p. 15) recognized that “it is difficult to see how viable spores could have arrived here, after such a long journey in space, undamaged by radiation.” He mistakenly thought that a spacecraft might protect the bacteria from cosmic radiation. Crick grossly underestimated the problem. [See Eugene N. Parker, “Shielding Space Travelers,” Scientific American, Vol. 294, March 2006, pp. 40–47.]

[http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/ReferencesandNotes28.html...]

 

Rev. Chris Pagan: On your final thought about what "evolutionists want," what is wanted is for creationists to accept reality, because like it or not, evolution is a fact.

 

Pahu: Where is evidence supporting that "fact"?

 

Rev. Chris Pagan: Science continues to increase our understanding of the world and the universe we live in, and the gaps where a deity can hide keep getting smaller every day. Before you know it, there will be no gaps to shove a god into.

 

Pahu: On the contrary, the more scientists learn about the universe, and life, the more they are admitting there has to be an intelligent designer. One example is Michael Behe who explained why he came to that conclusion based on his research in his book, "Darwin's Black Box."

I'm sure you have faith that you are correct. Michael Behe, really?

Abiogenesis is more easily rationalised than a creator. The current model(from my laymans perspective) is that atmospheric chemicals and water (probably with other chemicals) got hit by lightning and produced amino acids (this process is shown to occur in lab tests with early earth levels of various chemicals. Amino acids are the building blocks of life by the way.

 

A more recent article suggests that the amino acids may of gotten trapped into an RNA reactor. Basically it is like a tube in which convection currents force an RNA strand up and down. At the bottom of the tube, the RNA joins with other amino acids, at the top of the tube they replicate. (Very basic and probably quite wrong but you get the jist of the idea of an RNA reactor)

 

Once RNA is replicating, you open the way for the early viroids which basically replicated so fast and with so much error, that most offspring died and the offspring which remained was extremely diverse(genetically).From here, evolution takes over. No need for God here...

 

Make no mistake, there is very much the creationist community does not know, and we readily admit it.

We are of course, aware of this... If we thought you knew what you were talking about, and subjected your articles to peer review, we would give your creation science far more interest.

 

what evolutionists really want is for creationists to just say "oh, you're right,

Actually what we want is for creationists to stay out of the science classroom until they actually do some science. Every creationist article I have ever heard of has been utterly discredited for not following the scientific method, and in the ONE case where they have followed the scientific method, the evidence points to the theory of evolution as the best explanation for the evidence.

Reply by Rev. Chris Pagan yesterday

Evolution is simply change over time. My suggestion to you is to head over to talkorigins.org, which explains evolution. Abiogenesis is, to my understanding, a separate, but complimentary science to evolution. Here's a link on talkorigins.org covering abiogenesis: http://talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html . I would actually suggest a video, put out by the history channel, titled How Life Began. It explains quite a bit, and is entertaining.

 

Pahu: Doesn't that change involve changing from one species to another species? The definition of evolution I am aware of is the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth. That isn't simply change, is it?

 

Rev. Chris Pagan: As to your point that the logical endpoint is god created life, no its not. The logical endpoint is to say "I don't know."  Why is it so hard for theists in general and creationists in particular to admit that they don't know something? Instead they have to jam a deity in there.  Seriously, learn the phrase I don't know. It's not harmful, and its far more honest then saying "god did it."

 

Pahu: I don't know a whole lot more than I do know. But why do you assume the logical conclusion of the universe coming from nothing cannot be supernatural? Is that jamming, or just coming the a logical conclusion?

Abiogenesis or biopoesis is a completely different field & has nothing to do with evolution. Basically its like this - Organic life arose from inorganic matter (Abiogenesis) --> Then that organic life evolved (Evolution).

It doesn't matter to evolution how that life came to be, its just a natural process that affects biological life forms, not create them from scratch.

Seriously, haven't you guys ever read a science book or used google or wikipedia?

Reply by Akshay Bist yesterday

Abiogenesis or biopoesis is a completely different field & has nothing to do with evolution. Basically its like this - Organic life arose from inorganic matter (Abiogenesis) --> Then that organic life evolved (Evolution).

It doesn't matter to evolution how that life came to be, its just a natural process that affects biological life forms, not create them from scratch.

Seriously, haven't you guys ever read a science book or used google or wikipedia?

 

Pahu: Technically, you are right; biological evolution is  the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth.

The broader definition is the gradual development of something from a simple to a morecomplex form. This would include the evolution of the universe.

Does the organic definition rule out the fact that the life forms that allegedly evolved had a beginning? I believe Darwin proposed that life started in a warm little pond of inorganic chemicals. Even the proponents of Darwinian evolution start with a single cell, don't they?

 

The the question still remains: from where did that first living single cell come from. Life has never been observed rising from non-living matter.

Pahu, do you even listen when people talk to you?

 

Evolution has nothing to do with the beginning of life!

 

I believe Darwin proposed that life started in a warm little pond of inorganic chemicals. Even the proponents of Darwinian evolution start with a single cell, don't they?

No, Proponents of Darwinian evolution are currently looking at very simple RNA reactors(built in the lab for ease of study). The RNA is clearly witnessed evolving although alot of scientists are hesitating to call it life. Long story short, evolution says nothing about how life started, just how it diversified after it began.

 

from where did that first living single cell come from.

Who ever said it was a cell? look up the RNA world hypothesis for the current leading hypothesis in how life began... Cells are not necessary to create life.

You should consider reading On the Origin of Species (Darwin- I recommend the illustrated version) and Darwin's Ghost (Jones).  Then you may be a bit more "enlightened" regarding evolution.

 

Oh yeah Welcome to the site!

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