***[Moderator Note] Pahu is no longer a member of Think Atheist.  If you would like to add your thoughts to this thread, that is your prerogative; however, the original poster is not able to respond.[/Moderator Note]***

When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing. We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law, we can use the following logic:


1. The universe exists.

2. The universe had a beginning.

3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.

4. Since there was no universe, there was nothing.

5. Since the universe does exist, it came from nothing.

6. Nothing comes from nothing by any natural cause.

7. Therefore the cause of the universe is supernatural.

8. Life exists.

9. Life always comes from pre-existing life of the same kind (the Law of Biogenesis).

10. Life cannot come from nonliving matter by any natural cause.

11. Since life does exist, the cause of life is supernatural.


Many people with a naturalistic worldview assume everything can be explained by natural causes. From the beginning, they reject the possibility of a supernatural cause. Because of this they are left with no scientifically valid answers to the question of how the universe could come from nothing, which is impossible by any natural cause of which we are aware. Many answers have been proposed that go beyond the realm of known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation and therefore enter the realm of fiction.


The same logic applies to life. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that life only comes from pre-existing life of the same kind.


[color=blue][i]“Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the Law of Biogenesis. Evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes”[/color][/i] [[url=http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/]From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown[/url]]


Life never comes from non-living matter by any natural cause of which we are aware.


Now that we have seen proof that God exists, using logic based on known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we need to see if He has revealed Himself to us. In the Holy Bible there are hundreds of prophecies given by God who is speaking in the first person. In both Bible and secular history we find that those prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. No other writing on earth comes close to doing this! Only God can accurately reveal the future, ergo, He is the author of the Holy Bible. Within the pages of the Holy Bible He reveals His nature, our nature, His relationship to us, our need for salvation and His plan of salvation for us.


The reason the universe and life cannot come from nothing by any natural cause, but can come from a supernatural cause is because God is the self-existent creator of everything and everyone. He is not subject to His creation. He created it and sustains it. It is a mistake to judge God by human standards and human perspectives. God reveals that He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.


If you are interested in more detailed proof, read, [i]“Evidence that Demands a Verdict”[/i] by Josh McDowell.


[[url=http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000005147#] From “Reincarnation in the Bible?” [/url]]


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YES... science proves the Hindu Cosmology and some yogic systems are much closer than Christianity to what we actually observe...   No need to fight about the age of the universe... No need to fight about evolution...  Their God and Universe are big enough to handle those problems.  Their system is also much more compassionate as it allows for the possibility of future spiritual growth for even the worst of us.


I still see no reason to think they are correct....but I have to admit they are closer than the literalistic young earth creationist set.

Nah, the best way to shut him up is to prove that his first cause argument is false - done, and he hasn't come up with a response yet.  Too bad, so sad.

I think Pahu honestly believes that all our evidence and logic doesn't DISPROVE his God , so he feels entitled to continue believing in it ... he also keeps using circular arguments by referring back to the bible even when we show the bible is contradictory and false in many ways.  


Proof of the flood? A piece of rag that proves jesus? What are you smoking?

You're an expert on how the bible's supposed to be read? It's a fucking book, you read it like a book. It's not a puzzle.

Proof of the flood. Man there isn't enough water on the planet to cover up Mt. Everest.

And you expect 2 of all species to fit on a rickety boat & then co-exist and survive for months? 

That is just absurd. How can anyone be stupid enough to believe that nonsense?

Applause for Akshay! Thank you for stepping up to the plate and hitting a home run with theists that have chosen to ignore facts try to blah blah their nonsense on this forum.

I always laugh at this "You need to be an expert", "I studied the Bible/Koran" or "I have a degree in theology" lines. If you need a university degree to actually understand a book, what does that say about the book? You'd think the Supreme Creator of the fucking universe could write a book that's obvious and clearly understood. One that it isn't dependent on lingual intricacies and historical context.

Or more importantly, why bother with a book at all? Just implant the knowledge in people's minds directly. Then everyone knew the rules and everyone knew he'd exist

Yeah but if He implanted that knowledge then people wouldn't follow the right (hand) path of their own free volition, with nothing to base this choice on than a self contradictory set of hand picked texts that arose as a product of the theological and political preferences of the winning faction of early proto-catholic infighting. He might have foreseen, being able to predict the future with absolute certainty that it would mess up the plan. The plan being to pointlessly send off the large majority of the smug bastards created in His image to eternally suffer for arbitrary transgressions in a place that however unbelievable seems rather attractive when compared to what He prepared for the supposedly lucky ones.

The bible is a load of unverifiable bullshit only about as historically accurate as the great gatsby

Lets talk about the great flood.

Radius of Earth = 6378km

Height of Mt Everest(highest point on earth) = 8.8km

density of water at 25C = 997kg/m^3

Put that all together, & presto you find that the water that never really covered the earth would have weighed 4.5 billion trillion kgs!

Well adjusting for the mountain ranges, lets take it to be 4 billion trillion kgs!

That still is quiet a lot of water. It would have crushed everything underneath it.

Nothing would have survived from before the flood, even marine life would have died out .

The Pyramids wouldn't have survived.

And all the animals would have died from lack of oxygen at that height.

Believing in bullshit doesn't make it true.

@ Ryan - I'll tell you what is not funny. What is not funny is it is getting to the point in the USA where there are too many people who think this imaginary God being is going to make everything A-Okay in the end.

Instead, these people should be concentrating on what needs to be done right now, to try to accomplish betterment in our own lives and for future generations. I fear that too many of these folks are placing too much emphasis on praying, hindering important scientific development, and looking forward to the rapture which promotes a give-up and leave it in the hands of the Lord attitude.

How do we know that there was a beginning, in my opinion it (the universe) was always there.

In the form of singularity maybe, yes. But we do know that the universe (that is spacetime itself) is expanding and that that expansion is accelerating. And from the cosmic microwave background radiation we do know that the universe was once really hot and dense


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