***[Moderator Note] Pahu is no longer a member of Think Atheist.  If you would like to add your thoughts to this thread, that is your prerogative; however, the original poster is not able to respond.[/Moderator Note]***

When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing. We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law, we can use the following logic:

 

1. The universe exists.

2. The universe had a beginning.

3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.

4. Since there was no universe, there was nothing.

5. Since the universe does exist, it came from nothing.

6. Nothing comes from nothing by any natural cause.

7. Therefore the cause of the universe is supernatural.

8. Life exists.

9. Life always comes from pre-existing life of the same kind (the Law of Biogenesis).

10. Life cannot come from nonliving matter by any natural cause.

11. Since life does exist, the cause of life is supernatural.

 

Many people with a naturalistic worldview assume everything can be explained by natural causes. From the beginning, they reject the possibility of a supernatural cause. Because of this they are left with no scientifically valid answers to the question of how the universe could come from nothing, which is impossible by any natural cause of which we are aware. Many answers have been proposed that go beyond the realm of known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation and therefore enter the realm of fiction.

 

The same logic applies to life. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that life only comes from pre-existing life of the same kind.

 

[color=blue][i]“Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the Law of Biogenesis. Evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes”[/color][/i] [[url=http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/]From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown[/url]]

 

Life never comes from non-living matter by any natural cause of which we are aware.

 

Now that we have seen proof that God exists, using logic based on known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we need to see if He has revealed Himself to us. In the Holy Bible there are hundreds of prophecies given by God who is speaking in the first person. In both Bible and secular history we find that those prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. No other writing on earth comes close to doing this! Only God can accurately reveal the future, ergo, He is the author of the Holy Bible. Within the pages of the Holy Bible He reveals His nature, our nature, His relationship to us, our need for salvation and His plan of salvation for us.

 

The reason the universe and life cannot come from nothing by any natural cause, but can come from a supernatural cause is because God is the self-existent creator of everything and everyone. He is not subject to His creation. He created it and sustains it. It is a mistake to judge God by human standards and human perspectives. God reveals that He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

 

If you are interested in more detailed proof, read, [i]“Evidence that Demands a Verdict”[/i] by Josh McDowell.

 

[[url=http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000005147#] From “Reincarnation in the Bible?” [/url]]

 

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I agree... this idiocy deserves a facepalm. In fact it deserves two:

 

 You guys, you wearing out a lot of electrons and increasing the entropy of the universe and not much else.

There can never be proof of god.  With proof there is no need for faith.  Without faith you cannot claim to be a Christian.

 

Either you have faith in god or you believe that proof of god exists (in which case you are delusional).  I'm pretty sure the Bible stresses the importance of faith.  I thought your god wanted true believers.  Those who would believe no matter what.  There can never be evidence of god.  Your arguments are hollow and you fail to understand your own religion.

 

So which is it Pahu?  Knowledge or faith?

Ok, I'll make this quick comment in here and bother to answer the other comments people left me later (My sister is leaving soon - back to Puerto Rico - and I don't want to spend it ignoring her)


In the words of St. Thomas of Aquinas, God is neither obvious nor unprovable. I suppose that's where the majority of the problem lies.

Science always seeks obvious, repeatable evidence... insofar as it treats with unchangeable laws of the universe. If what is being sought to prove is a will, rather than a law, the philosophy of science and it's method can be a bit crippled.

It is an act of Faith because it is not obvious.

obvious and repeatable = reality

 

speculation and nonexistant = fairytale.

 

We dont call people who can see crippled.. Its people that are blind that are crippled. religion means putting on blinders our eyes are open.

Reply by Dr. del Toro 13 hours ago

There can never be proof of god.  With proof there is no need for faith.  Without faith you cannot claim to be a Christian.

 

Pahu: Why do you believe that?

 

Dr. del Toro: Either you have faith in god or you believe that proof of god exists (in which case you are delusional).  I'm pretty sure the Bible stresses the importance of faith.  I thought your god wanted true believers.  Those who would believe no matter what.  There can never be evidence of god.  Your arguments are hollow and you fail to understand your own religion.

 

So which is it Pahu?  Knowledge or faith?

 

Pahu: Why can't it be both? Isn't your premise flawed? In 1 Thessalonians 5:21, we are told to "Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good." It seems our faith is based on evidence. In Hebrews 11:1 we learn that "faith is assurance of things hoped for, proof of things not seen."

In James we learn:

2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man says he has faith, but has no works? Can faith save him?

2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead in itself.

2:18 Yes, a man will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith.

2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe, and shudder. 
2:20 But do you want to know, vain man, that faith apart from works is dead? 
2:21 Wasn't Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 
2:22 You see that faith worked with his works, and by works faith was perfected; 
2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness;"{Genesis 15:16} and he was called the friend of God. 
2:24 You see then that by works, a man is justified, and not only by faith. 
2:25 In like manner wasn't Rahab the prostitute also justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way? 
2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

Please explain to us why you reject the Book of Mormon.  Is it not also the word of god?

Pahu: The universe is everything that exists. Before it existed, it didn't exist. Before the existence of everything that exists, there was nothing. Nothing always comes from nothing by any natural cause. Since the universe does exist, the cause of it coming from nothing must be supernatural.

 

My reply: Now you are just playing word games and offering no proof at all.  You state that the Universe is everything that exists as if that is some sort of self evident fact.  In point of fact, our Universe is all we know about, but we certainly cannot conclusively say it is everything.  For your argument to even begin to hold merit, you need to prove that our Universe is the only thing that exists.  What existed before expansion?  What exists outside of our spacetime?  Are their other spacetimes?  Is there a spacetime continuum from beyond our own cosmic expansion?

 

Word games just won't do, Pahu - I asked you for some proof, not rhetorical gymnastics.

 

Reply by Heather Spoonheim 21 hours ago Pahu: The universe is everything that exists. Before it existed, it didn't exist. Before the existence of everything that exists, there was nothing. Nothing always comes from nothing by any natural cause. Since the universe does exist, the cause of it coming from nothing must be supernatural.
My reply: Now you are just playing word games and offering no proof at all. You state that the Universe is everything that exists as if that is some sort of self evident fact. In point of fact, our Universe is all we know about, but we certainly cannot conclusively say it is everything. For your argument to even begin to hold merit, you need to prove that our Universe is the only thing that exists. What existed before expansion? What exists outside of our spacetime? Are their other spacetimes? Is there a spacetime continuum from beyond our own cosmic expansion?

Word games just won't do, Pahu - I asked you for some proof, not rhetorical gymnastics.

 

Pahu: Aren’t you playing word games? Do you know of any facts suggesting the known universe is not all existing matter and space considered as a whole; the cosmos? You ask three questions designed to suggest other possibilities. What laws of physics support the assumptions contained in those questions? My conclusions are based on known laws of physics, not imaginary possibilities nor the rhetorical gymnastics you are using.

 

For one, string theory.  When studying the 'stuff that makes up stuff', quantum physicists look at the interaction of energy fields known as strings and branes.  As it turns out, the mathematical model for the quantum realm indicates that there are at least 11 spacial dimensions; not just the paltry three in which we experience our own spacetime.

 

Secondly, although we still haven't located the higgs boson, it is clear that gravitational force is not as strong as the electro-magnetic force.  The difference between them is exponential over distance, actually, and that strongly suggests that gravity originates in a different number of dimensions than just our three, or that there is a graviton particle that is moving in and out of our spacetime to cause the gravitational field.

 

Third, there is the case of dark energy.  The universe (the one WE are in) is expanding at an accelerating rate.  This would not be the case if the energy for universal expansion came exclusively from the big bang.  In point of fact we know that there was cosmic expansion before the big bang, and this indicates interaction with a much larger mass outside of our own spacetime.

 

Finally, you should just plain know better.  Mankind began by thinking some rocky patch in the middle east was the entire world and it was at the center of a cosmos that was constructed like a snow globe - the sky being a firmament that separated the waters above from below, blah blah blah, you know, that outdated relic of a holy book you like to read so much.  Anyway, we eventually came to realize we weren't the center, the middle east wasn't all there was, we weren't even flat, our galaxy wasn't the only one, our galaxy isn't even special; so, what makes you think our universe is so damn special?  Aside from your dusty old holy book that doesn't even know how it's constructed.

 

If you really want to use science to prove god, you need to accept the entire body of science rather than just picking and choosing the passages that fit your beliefs; wait a minute, are you doing the same thing with science that you do with the bible?

Hey, Puha, have you forgotten about our little exchange here?

Reply by Heather Spoonheim
Hey, Puha, have you forgotten about our little exchange here?

Pahu: Which exchange? Refresh my memory.

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