***[Moderator Note] Pahu is no longer a member of Think Atheist.  If you would like to add your thoughts to this thread, that is your prerogative; however, the original poster is not able to respond.[/Moderator Note]***

When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing. We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law, we can use the following logic:

 

1. The universe exists.

2. The universe had a beginning.

3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.

4. Since there was no universe, there was nothing.

5. Since the universe does exist, it came from nothing.

6. Nothing comes from nothing by any natural cause.

7. Therefore the cause of the universe is supernatural.

8. Life exists.

9. Life always comes from pre-existing life of the same kind (the Law of Biogenesis).

10. Life cannot come from nonliving matter by any natural cause.

11. Since life does exist, the cause of life is supernatural.

 

Many people with a naturalistic worldview assume everything can be explained by natural causes. From the beginning, they reject the possibility of a supernatural cause. Because of this they are left with no scientifically valid answers to the question of how the universe could come from nothing, which is impossible by any natural cause of which we are aware. Many answers have been proposed that go beyond the realm of known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation and therefore enter the realm of fiction.

 

The same logic applies to life. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that life only comes from pre-existing life of the same kind.

 

[color=blue][i]“Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the Law of Biogenesis. Evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes”[/color][/i] [[url=http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/]From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown[/url]]

 

Life never comes from non-living matter by any natural cause of which we are aware.

 

Now that we have seen proof that God exists, using logic based on known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we need to see if He has revealed Himself to us. In the Holy Bible there are hundreds of prophecies given by God who is speaking in the first person. In both Bible and secular history we find that those prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. No other writing on earth comes close to doing this! Only God can accurately reveal the future, ergo, He is the author of the Holy Bible. Within the pages of the Holy Bible He reveals His nature, our nature, His relationship to us, our need for salvation and His plan of salvation for us.

 

The reason the universe and life cannot come from nothing by any natural cause, but can come from a supernatural cause is because God is the self-existent creator of everything and everyone. He is not subject to His creation. He created it and sustains it. It is a mistake to judge God by human standards and human perspectives. God reveals that He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

 

If you are interested in more detailed proof, read, [i]“Evidence that Demands a Verdict”[/i] by Josh McDowell.

 

[[url=http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000005147#] From “Reincarnation in the Bible?” [/url]]

 

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Replies to This Discussion

sure, biblical is logical!  adam came from dust. eve was formed from one of his ribs. the serpent talked. and dinosaurs lived just less than 10,000 to 6,000 years ago.   and the wild carnivores in the ark didn't eat the other preys.  jonah survived inside the whale who puked him on to shore.  fish and loaves multiplied.  water became wine at the wedding.  a lady glanced back and turned into a pillar of salt.  It's all written in the bible so it must be true. 

 

by the way, I'm writing in my diary 'a purple unicorn visited me one night and told me to build a house made of organic vanilla-scented soaps & Starbucks napkins' hoping someone will find it after my death and perhaps half a millenium later, it will be gospel.  Hey, it's written in my diary so it must be true.

Hey, Lee, How about our Unicorns meet up. My Unicorn is gentle, loving, can run very fast, and watches over me. She follows me everywhere, even when I go shopping

 

I think a purple and white striped Unicorn could be a very good look. What do you think?

 

We both write books, and Voila, a new religion is born.

Great idea! :-D  A unicorn summit conference. Let's start as a lowly cult.  Then let's target gullible, hopeless/hopeful, desperate ones in despair and promise them our unicorns are almighty, always good, always just and will take care of their needs, fix their problems and reward them w/ blessings and everlasting paradise as long as they fawn, pander to and exalt the unicorns and if they don't believe, let's threaten them w/ the concept of eternal damnation forever burning craphole. And tell them even if they do good deeds like volunteer work & charitable acts, it doesn't count, it will not save them and their souls will still be condemned to burn forevermore. Hopefully that will scare enough ppl and that'll spike the number of converts. Then we'll regularyly eke out from them this thing called tithes.  Soon we'll have chapters and missionaries spreading the 'truth' of the unicorns, we'll build places of worship across the world (MORE TITHES, tax-free Yey!), then who knows? buy broadcast airtime or cable show, heck why not an entire tv station to evangelize more gullible, hopeless/hopeful ones. By then we'll have a wide,solid base of believers... then we cease being a cult and become a recognized valid established religion.  Wheeeee! Praise be unto our purple and white striped unicorns!!! 

My partner wants to retire, so can we start soon? - not too lowly a cult please, I do have my standards - I'll start getting the word out - I don't quite know how to look humble, but I will practice - would you look good on TV - you have to have very puffy hair on TV, and you have to practice the sickly smile, that is a must - I am really good at patting somebody on the head, especially if they are on their knees before me. We can follow the Ron Hubbard method - don't even need god. Can't wait to get started,and have all that money rolling in - Yaahhoooo.

 

PS I have better taste in buildings and furnishings than Hubbard.

ROTFLMAO!!!!

"Evidence that Demands a Verdict"?  McDowell's book has been around so long it's a wonder it isn't a part of the canon!  You really need to get out more often.

The prophecies fulfilled in the Christian Bible?  Please. Not hard to explain at all.  The authors of the Christian Bible used the Hebrew Scripture to flesh out the life of Jesus.  They started with the prophecy, then on the assumption that Jesus was the Messiah and must have fulfilled these prophecies, they created events from the wholecloth.  It's called shooting the arrow, then drawing the bullseye after.  As far as prophecy in the Christian Bible being fulfilled today, if you are of that ilk there really is no reason bothering with you.  You have crossed the line into science fiction fantasy and would be a joke if your type weren't destroying this country and thwarting any attempt at peace in the Middle East.

I'm too old to tolerate fools.

There was a time when Christians had faith, but you have no faith.  You are looking for proof, you are making truth claims, you and others are like you are scrambling around looking for anything that would seem to support your faith claims because you recognize that they have been proven false.

And it really isn't about this list, you're just another troll.  What it is about is you remaining in control, keeping your position of power over people.   It's about money.  It's about sex.  It's about fame.  No one here is going to agree with you...they simply are too intelligent and educated...and you know that when you make these posts. 

Ad hominen?  I don't care for old Latin phrases.  If a man is a damn fool, I call him a damn fool.

And you, sir, are a damn fool. 

Reply by Philip Jarrett 17 hours ago

"Evidence that Demands a Verdict"? McDowell's book has been around so long it's a wonder it isn't a part of the canon! You really need to get out more often.

 

Pahu: What errors do you find in his book?

Philip Jarrett: The prophecies fulfilled in the Christian Bible? Please. Not hard to explain at all. The authors of the Christian Bible used the Hebrew Scripture to flesh out the life of Jesus. They started with the prophecy, then on the assumption that Jesus was the Messiah and must have fulfilled these prophecies, they created events from the wholecloth. It's called shooting the arrow, then drawing the bullseye after. As far as prophecy in the Christian Bible being fulfilled today, if you are of that ilk there really is no reason bothering with you. You have crossed the line into science fiction fantasy and would be a joke if your type weren't destroying this country and thwarting any attempt at peace in the Middle East.


Pahu: Can you support your assertions with evidence?

 

Philip Jarrett: There was a time when Christians had faith, but you have no faith.  You are looking for proof, you are making truth claims, you and others are like you are scrambling around looking for anything that would seem to support your faith claims because you recognize that they have been proven false.

 

Pahu: When were they proven false?

 

Philip Jarrett: And it really isn't about this list, you're just another troll.  What it is about is you remaining in control, keeping your position of power over people.   It's about money.  It's about sex.  It's about fame.  No one here is going to agree with you...they simply are too intelligent and educated...and you know that when you make these posts.

 

Pahu: Control? Power? Money? Sex? Fame? Why do you believe that?

 

Philip Jarrett: If a man is a damn fool, I call him a damn fool.

And you, sir, are a damn fool. 

 

Pahu: To that charge, I plead guilty!

Fear Trumps Logic - keep on holding onto your crutch - you have a need - and that's okay, if it works for you.

The bible doesn't reveal my nature, doesn't come even close. God is omnipotent - well, he is doing a lousy job of sitting on his hands and looking the other way. Do you think he could be a tad bored.

 

It's been the same throughout all mankind,

We manipulate with our thinking mind,

We jiggle and juggle each little bit,

If it doesn't work, we retrofit,

An earthquake devastated the village again,

We were washed away by flooding rain,

Why do these things happen to us?

We swear and curse and even cuss,

And then our elder has a brilliant thought,

The gods are angry and must be bought,

Good thing, happy god did it,

Bad thing, angry god did it.

 

As we evolved our thoughts did change,

Our gods we sought to rearrange,

We had gods for oceans, gods for sun,

Gods for war and gods for fun,

Gods for wine and gods for trees,

Gods for crops and gods for bees,

This system worked and humans grew,

And many thousand years just flew,

They still believed the gods controlled,

Their destiny as life did unfold,

Good thing, love god did it,

Bad thing, war god did it.

 

But now we come to the modern day,

All superstition is swept away,

We don't need gods of many hues,

Our virgins to ruthlessly abuse,

We now have one god, gentle and wise,

Just believe in him to open your eyes,

His son is Jesus, a lovely man,

Believe in him, now that's the plan,

Its' now so simple, and plain to see,

I believe in Him, He looks after me,

Good thing, god did it,

Bad thing, devil did it.

 

What god wants, god gets, god help us all.

hit the nail right smack on the head! 

Love the poem! <3

Ugh... here we go again. *irritated sigh* This argument is so worn out. Cosmological Argument... again. [Is anyone else tired of answering this?]  I'm too lazy to answer on my own, so I'll borrow from Freethoughtpedia.

6. First Cause Argument

a.k.a. something can't come from nothing, Cosmological Argument, Every effect has a cause, First law of thermodynamics proves God exists

Premise:

Everything that exists in our world is the result of some sort of "first cause" which brought about its existence. Therefore, there must have been a force which created the universe. That "first cause" is what we call God.

Critique:

Like many arguments of this nature, theists make a special pleading to exempt God from their argument. If everything that exists must have a cause, who created God? Variations of this argument employ the first law of thermodynamics to imply that God has always existed because the first law of thermodynamics says matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Nice notion, but it still doesn't prove there's a God. It merely suggests there's more for us to understand, and every day scientists get closer to addressing these issues without referencing God or anything supernatural.
If there's a recurring theme in any of these arguments, it's that theists pick and choose which tenets of science they want to embrace (the ones that help prove their claims) and ignore all the rest as if they don't exist. These theories are part of a complex interconnected system. It's intellectually dishonest and unethical to ignore evidence that counters your supernatural claims. The First Cause Argument ignores huge amounts of contradictory evidence, as do many of the arguments herein.

More importantly, as we are only half-way into the most common arguments for God, I'm sure you've heard most of these before. And the next five will likely not be a surprise either. The real surprise is that these arguments have been bandied about for hundreds of years. And the refutations of these claims have also been present. This is a testament (no pun intended) to how many religious leaders willfully ignore the flaws and downright misrepresentations in their claims. These critiques are nothing new. A hundred years ago, famous people like Robert G. Ingersoll gave public speeches outlining the same issues. Don't think your neighborhood pastor or priest isn't aware of the faulty logic he is foisting on his flock. It may be their livelihood and they have an interest in saying these stories, but ask yourself if you have as much of a personal advantage in believing the stories told by people who know they aren't true?

 

Freethoughtpedia.org - Top Ten Arguments for the Existence of God

 

PS... how do you know for certain that such a "prime mover" was not an alien, an invisible pink unicorn, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

 

PSS...If you're here to convert us... it's not going to work.

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