***[Moderator Note] Pahu is no longer a member of Think Atheist. If you would like to add your thoughts to this thread, that is your prerogative; however, the original poster is not able to respond.[/Moderator Note]***
When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing. We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law, we can use the following logic:
1. The universe exists.
2. The universe had a beginning.
3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.
4. Since there was no universe, there was nothing.
5. Since the universe does exist, it came from nothing.
6. Nothing comes from nothing by any natural cause.
7. Therefore the cause of the universe is supernatural.
8. Life exists.
9. Life always comes from pre-existing life of the same kind (the Law of Biogenesis).
10. Life cannot come from nonliving matter by any natural cause.
11. Since life does exist, the cause of life is supernatural.
Many people with a naturalistic worldview assume everything can be explained by natural causes. From the beginning, they reject the possibility of a supernatural cause. Because of this they are left with no scientifically valid answers to the question of how the universe could come from nothing, which is impossible by any natural cause of which we are aware. Many answers have been proposed that go beyond the realm of known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation and therefore enter the realm of fiction.
The same logic applies to life. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that life only comes from pre-existing life of the same kind.
[color=blue][i]“Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the Law of Biogenesis. Evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes”[/color][/i] [[url=http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/]From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown[/url]]
Life never comes from non-living matter by any natural cause of which we are aware.
Now that we have seen proof that God exists, using logic based on known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we need to see if He has revealed Himself to us. In the Holy Bible there are hundreds of prophecies given by God who is speaking in the first person. In both Bible and secular history we find that those prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. No other writing on earth comes close to doing this! Only God can accurately reveal the future, ergo, He is the author of the Holy Bible. Within the pages of the Holy Bible He reveals His nature, our nature, His relationship to us, our need for salvation and His plan of salvation for us.
The reason the universe and life cannot come from nothing by any natural cause, but can come from a supernatural cause is because God is the self-existent creator of everything and everyone. He is not subject to His creation. He created it and sustains it. It is a mistake to judge God by human standards and human perspectives. God reveals that He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
If you are interested in more detailed proof, read, [i]“Evidence that Demands a Verdict”[/i] by Josh McDowell.
[[url=http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000005147#] From “Reincarnation in the Bible?” [/url]]
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Fear Trumps Logic - keep on holding onto your crutch - you have a need - and that's okay, if it works for you.
The bible doesn't reveal my nature, doesn't come even close. God is omnipotent - well, he is doing a lousy job of sitting on his hands and looking the other way. Do you think he could be a tad bored.
It's been the same throughout all mankind,
We manipulate with our thinking mind,
We jiggle and juggle each little bit,
If it doesn't work, we retrofit,
An earthquake devastated the village again,
We were washed away by flooding rain,
Why do these things happen to us?
We swear and curse and even cuss,
And then our elder has a brilliant thought,
The gods are angry and must be bought,
Good thing, happy god did it,
Bad thing, angry god did it.
As we evolved our thoughts did change,
Our gods we sought to rearrange,
We had gods for oceans, gods for sun,
Gods for war and gods for fun,
Gods for wine and gods for trees,
Gods for crops and gods for bees,
This system worked and humans grew,
And many thousand years just flew,
They still believed the gods controlled,
Their destiny as life did unfold,
Good thing, love god did it,
Bad thing, war god did it.
But now we come to the modern day,
All superstition is swept away,
We don't need gods of many hues,
Our virgins to ruthlessly abuse,
We now have one god, gentle and wise,
Just believe in him to open your eyes,
His son is Jesus, a lovely man,
Believe in him, now that's the plan,
Its' now so simple, and plain to see,
I believe in Him, He looks after me,
Good thing, god did it,
Bad thing, devil did it.
What god wants, god gets, god help us all.
hit the nail right smack on the head!
Love the poem! <3
Ugh... here we go again. *irritated sigh* This argument is so worn out. Cosmological Argument... again. [Is anyone else tired of answering this?] I'm too lazy to answer on my own, so I'll borrow from Freethoughtpedia.
a.k.a. something can't come from nothing, Cosmological Argument, Every effect has a cause, First law of thermodynamics proves God exists
More importantly, as we are only half-way into the most common arguments for God, I'm sure you've heard most of these before. And the next five will likely not be a surprise either. The real surprise is that these arguments have been bandied about for hundreds of years. And the refutations of these claims have also been present. This is a testament (no pun intended) to how many religious leaders willfully ignore the flaws and downright misrepresentations in their claims. These critiques are nothing new. A hundred years ago, famous people like Robert G. Ingersoll gave public speeches outlining the same issues. Don't think your neighborhood pastor or priest isn't aware of the faulty logic he is foisting on his flock. It may be their livelihood and they have an interest in saying these stories, but ask yourself if you have as much of a personal advantage in believing the stories told by people who know they aren't true?
PS... how do you know for certain that such a "prime mover" was not an alien, an invisible pink unicorn, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
PSS...If you're here to convert us... it's not going to work.
Why are you people still debating this man? He knows nothing beyond what he regurgitates from the ignoramuses at the Discovery Institute. What is the point of arguing with him when his "proof" always boils down to the Bible being the ultimate authority?
"When you refer to the Bible as bigoted, do you mean it is prejudiced, biased, partial, one-sided, sectarian,discriminatory; opinionated, dogmatic, intolerant, narrow-minded,blinkered, illiberal; racist, sexist, chauvinistic,"
All of those actually! And more!
Contradictions? Bigotry? Where in the bible? LOL. Man. You've got to be kidding me.
Where DON'T you find it? Just read any chapter.
Pahu: For example?
@ Pahu: Genesis through Revelations... + all the books that got thrown out. There are plenty of examples...just google it and do some research. It would be redundant to just copy and paste them here when I have seen countless examples already posted.
Or just go to the Skeptics Annotated Bible and click the links for Contradictions, Cruelty and Violence, Absurdity, and so on.
Yes! Thank you. ^_^
You might want to check your link.
You might want to check your link.
Pahu: I did. Perhaps you failed to notice all of the supposed problems with the Bible are explained.