***[Moderator Note] Pahu is no longer a member of Think Atheist.  If you would like to add your thoughts to this thread, that is your prerogative; however, the original poster is not able to respond.[/Moderator Note]***

When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing. We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law, we can use the following logic:


1. The universe exists.

2. The universe had a beginning.

3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.

4. Since there was no universe, there was nothing.

5. Since the universe does exist, it came from nothing.

6. Nothing comes from nothing by any natural cause.

7. Therefore the cause of the universe is supernatural.

8. Life exists.

9. Life always comes from pre-existing life of the same kind (the Law of Biogenesis).

10. Life cannot come from nonliving matter by any natural cause.

11. Since life does exist, the cause of life is supernatural.


Many people with a naturalistic worldview assume everything can be explained by natural causes. From the beginning, they reject the possibility of a supernatural cause. Because of this they are left with no scientifically valid answers to the question of how the universe could come from nothing, which is impossible by any natural cause of which we are aware. Many answers have been proposed that go beyond the realm of known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation and therefore enter the realm of fiction.


The same logic applies to life. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that life only comes from pre-existing life of the same kind.


[color=blue][i]“Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the Law of Biogenesis. Evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes”[/color][/i] [[url=http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/]From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown[/url]]


Life never comes from non-living matter by any natural cause of which we are aware.


Now that we have seen proof that God exists, using logic based on known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we need to see if He has revealed Himself to us. In the Holy Bible there are hundreds of prophecies given by God who is speaking in the first person. In both Bible and secular history we find that those prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. No other writing on earth comes close to doing this! Only God can accurately reveal the future, ergo, He is the author of the Holy Bible. Within the pages of the Holy Bible He reveals His nature, our nature, His relationship to us, our need for salvation and His plan of salvation for us.


The reason the universe and life cannot come from nothing by any natural cause, but can come from a supernatural cause is because God is the self-existent creator of everything and everyone. He is not subject to His creation. He created it and sustains it. It is a mistake to judge God by human standards and human perspectives. God reveals that He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.


If you are interested in more detailed proof, read, [i]“Evidence that Demands a Verdict”[/i] by Josh McDowell.


[[url=http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000005147#] From “Reincarnation in the Bible?” [/url]]


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Ugh... here we go again. *irritated sigh* This argument is so worn out. Cosmological Argument... again. [Is anyone else tired of answering this?]  I'm too lazy to answer on my own, so I'll borrow from Freethoughtpedia.

6. First Cause Argument

a.k.a. something can't come from nothing, Cosmological Argument, Every effect has a cause, First law of thermodynamics proves God exists


Everything that exists in our world is the result of some sort of "first cause" which brought about its existence. Therefore, there must have been a force which created the universe. That "first cause" is what we call God.


Like many arguments of this nature, theists make a special pleading to exempt God from their argument. If everything that exists must have a cause, who created God? Variations of this argument employ the first law of thermodynamics to imply that God has always existed because the first law of thermodynamics says matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Nice notion, but it still doesn't prove there's a God. It merely suggests there's more for us to understand, and every day scientists get closer to addressing these issues without referencing God or anything supernatural.
If there's a recurring theme in any of these arguments, it's that theists pick and choose which tenets of science they want to embrace (the ones that help prove their claims) and ignore all the rest as if they don't exist. These theories are part of a complex interconnected system. It's intellectually dishonest and unethical to ignore evidence that counters your supernatural claims. The First Cause Argument ignores huge amounts of contradictory evidence, as do many of the arguments herein.

More importantly, as we are only half-way into the most common arguments for God, I'm sure you've heard most of these before. And the next five will likely not be a surprise either. The real surprise is that these arguments have been bandied about for hundreds of years. And the refutations of these claims have also been present. This is a testament (no pun intended) to how many religious leaders willfully ignore the flaws and downright misrepresentations in their claims. These critiques are nothing new. A hundred years ago, famous people like Robert G. Ingersoll gave public speeches outlining the same issues. Don't think your neighborhood pastor or priest isn't aware of the faulty logic he is foisting on his flock. It may be their livelihood and they have an interest in saying these stories, but ask yourself if you have as much of a personal advantage in believing the stories told by people who know they aren't true?


Freethoughtpedia.org - Top Ten Arguments for the Existence of God


PS... how do you know for certain that such a "prime mover" was not an alien, an invisible pink unicorn, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?


PSS...If you're here to convert us... it's not going to work.

   Why are you people still debating this man?  He knows nothing beyond what he regurgitates from the ignoramuses at the Discovery Institute.  What is the point of arguing with him when his "proof" always boils down to the Bible being the ultimate authority?  

"When you refer to the Bible as bigoted, do you mean it is prejudiced, biased, partial, one-sided, sectarian,discriminatory; opinionated, dogmatic, intolerant, narrow-minded,blinkered, illiberal; racist, sexist, chauvinistic," 


All of those actually!  And more!  


Contradictions?  Bigotry?  Where in the bible?   LOL.  Man.  You've got to be kidding me.


Where DON'T you find it?  Just read any chapter. 


Pahu: For example?

@ Pahu: Genesis through Revelations... + all the books that got thrown out. There are plenty of examples...just google it and do some research.  It would be redundant to just copy and paste them here when I have seen countless examples already posted.


Or just go to the Skeptics Annotated Bible and click the links for Contradictions, Cruelty and Violence, Absurdity, and so on.

Yes! Thank you. ^_^

Or just go to the Skeptics Annotated Bible and click the links for Contradictions, Cruelty and Violence, Absurdity, and so on.


Pahu: You will find the assertions in the Skeptics Annotated Bible refuted here: Bible Skeptics Answered.

You might want to check your link.

You might want to check your link.


Pahu: I did. Perhaps you failed to notice all of the supposed problems with the Bible are explained.

Pahu, many of the non-believers who belong to TA have been on this journey which you yourself may choose to take someday. We were born into religion, later shown specific examples of the Bible's innumerable apparent flaws, and then researched for ourselves the Christian defense for those claims. Obviously, we've sided with the skeptics. What you're linking to is nothing new for us. I have myself, while still a Christian, read hundreds of error claims and apologist rebuttals while in my early 20's. I considered them as honestly as I could, and discussed them with close friends and family -- Christians all. Then it all just became too much. Too many semantic gymnastics, too many far-fetched too much intellectual dishonesty,


Pahu: And yet the fact remains that the universe came from nothing and the Bible contains hundreds of fulfilled prophecies.

Scholars disagree on many parts of Scripture, and probably will until the Second Coming, but the fact remains that it is the written word of God.


It is the written word of man.  And you appear to have enslaved your life to it.  There is so much more joy and wonder in the real world.


Pahu: That is easy to assert, but impossible to substantiate. How did those human authors manage to write hundreds of fulfilled prophecies?

What is your proof that the Universe came from nothing?


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