***[Moderator Note] Pahu is no longer a member of Think Atheist. If you would like to add your thoughts to this thread, that is your prerogative; however, the original poster is not able to respond.[/Moderator Note]***
When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing. We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law, we can use the following logic:
1. The universe exists.
2. The universe had a beginning.
3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.
4. Since there was no universe, there was nothing.
5. Since the universe does exist, it came from nothing.
6. Nothing comes from nothing by any natural cause.
7. Therefore the cause of the universe is supernatural.
8. Life exists.
9. Life always comes from pre-existing life of the same kind (the Law of Biogenesis).
10. Life cannot come from nonliving matter by any natural cause.
11. Since life does exist, the cause of life is supernatural.
Many people with a naturalistic worldview assume everything can be explained by natural causes. From the beginning, they reject the possibility of a supernatural cause. Because of this they are left with no scientifically valid answers to the question of how the universe could come from nothing, which is impossible by any natural cause of which we are aware. Many answers have been proposed that go beyond the realm of known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation and therefore enter the realm of fiction.
The same logic applies to life. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that life only comes from pre-existing life of the same kind.
[color=blue][i]“Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the Law of Biogenesis. Evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes”[/color][/i] [[url=http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/]From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown[/url]]
Life never comes from non-living matter by any natural cause of which we are aware.
Now that we have seen proof that God exists, using logic based on known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we need to see if He has revealed Himself to us. In the Holy Bible there are hundreds of prophecies given by God who is speaking in the first person. In both Bible and secular history we find that those prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. No other writing on earth comes close to doing this! Only God can accurately reveal the future, ergo, He is the author of the Holy Bible. Within the pages of the Holy Bible He reveals His nature, our nature, His relationship to us, our need for salvation and His plan of salvation for us.
The reason the universe and life cannot come from nothing by any natural cause, but can come from a supernatural cause is because God is the self-existent creator of everything and everyone. He is not subject to His creation. He created it and sustains it. It is a mistake to judge God by human standards and human perspectives. God reveals that He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
If you are interested in more detailed proof, read, [i]“Evidence that Demands a Verdict”[/i] by Josh McDowell.
[[url=http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000005147#] From “Reincarnation in the Bible?” [/url]]
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No, comedy month(almost)
So why does the loving god give kids bone cancer?
Because god wants them with him in heaven so he can share his love with him. Bloody pervert.
Having read several pages and seeing the same arguments from Pahu being copy-pasted, I will no longer waste my time on this thread.
Pahu, when and if you get any real proof of your(or any) god. Let me know, I would truly LOVE to have a single book do all my thinking for me. Life would be so much simpler then.
Carlos - The Catholic prohibition on condoms during a time of overpopulation is a crime against humanity. Spreading the fallacy that condoms increase the risk of contracting aids to low-literacy rural Africans is worse than murder. Condoning the death penalty for gays in third world countries while denying them the right to marry in the developed world is just plain hateful. Then there is the creationist movement against scientific literacy, admittedly not Catholic based, but still based on the same Bronze Age cult. Of course there is the opposition to stem cell research as well as opposition to abortion coupled with opposition to sex education - just how much do you have to hate young girls to jump on both bandwagons?
Now the U.S. has a governor in Texas who is admitting he knows nothing about economics but he plans a big prayer rally to fix the damn problem. Prayer does zero, zilch, nada, and you all bloody well know it. All you have to do is look at the mortality statistics from a few hospitals to realize that death is not the least bit distracted by prayer - children die in equal numbers whether prayed for or not and that is absolute fact.
Now this guy in Norway may have been Christian or maybe he tailored his theism to his own designs like all the rest. One way or the other, though, he believed there was a wonderful afterlife waiting for him and he prayed for courage to carry out his task. It should be a no-brainer to lock up any nutter who believes in invisible super beings who listen to his ramblings and provide him with supernatural protection - but it isn't because the world is polluted to saturation with the likes of you.
You do not have one shred of evidence for the existence of your imaginary friend. You are perfectly aware that there are thousands of bits of evidence that suggest your imaginary friend is 100% in your imagination only. Yet you continue to walk around, unembarrassed that you follow a Bronze Age cult, talk to a deity from the Semitic pantheon, and base your sexual morality on the teaching of a group of celibates and paedophiles. What does it take for you to wake up and realize you have been brainwashed by a cult?
You know, this method of atheists of throwing a thousand things that each deserve a thousand lines for a defense is really tiresome. Over more, the blank misunderstanding of religion by, though not all, but many atheists is really worrisome.
Overpopulation? May I ask where is the overpopulation? America is going to go to a depression worse than the great depression because the retired elderly are sucking up all the money of the government when there are almost no more children to replace the wealth sucked up by these retired people.
In fact, talk to any scientist. I have a biologist in college that says that overpopulation is NOT a current problem. It's the distribution of wealth. 40% of all of Americas wealth lies in 1% of the people. Are you truly going to attack overpopulation when all of that money is thrown away in the vain and useless desires of the disgustingly rich?
I don't know for other religions, but Catholicism DOES NOT condone the death penalty for homosexuals. It is even against it. For Catholics and many other branches of Christianity, homosexual desires are a cross like any else. I have met gay Catholics that are celibate for life... and they are rather praised for such a sacrifice.
Prayer does not work that way! Prayer isn't something one does to a force that surrenders unflinchingly to the one that says a prayer. Prayer, when done to God, is a petition to a will --- and like any petition, it rests on the decision of God and the trust and faith of the person. Ultimately, the only prayers that are invariably answered, for so long as they are done unceasingly everyday, is that for the acquirement of faith, hope, love, and other like virtues.
God doesn't hear, however, the sinful prayer... and if one were to merely be doing such prayers for the sake of mocking or cynically proving God through irreverence, you might as well be answered by the ignorance of God to your prayer.
All in all, that Texas governor seems sketchy to me, as you paint him to me.
Sex education? Any person who studies countries with sex education and countries without sex education would know that countries educated about sex by the government are invariably more promiscuous. Might I say, America is the only country I know of that has a school exclusive for those that are pregnant underage.
My Russian boss said that things are wonderful in her country, concerning birth education. There is not so much foolish, meaningless licentiousness and the flood of unplanned pregnancies. It is by coming here and seeing a documentary of "Sex in America" that she is convinced that she should vote for a "No" for government sex education in Russia. By the by, she isn't even religious.
Embryonic stem cell research is considered evil because you need to destroy the zygote. Adult stem cell research is important and even praised by Catholics. Even more so, do you know that adult stem cell research has been found as a means of curing AIDS? It's a beautiful thing, since the media only said it was gene therapy or stem cell research, without mentioning adult.
Over more, embryonic stem cell research are prone to producing tumors, poorly manageable, and "ungovernable". Mind you, all current research with these embryonic stem cell research has generally concluded in failure. Nevertheless, adult stem cell research has MANY promising venues... yet America is the only place where they want to continue research, even though it has sent them only to a seemingly large loss of money.
Abortion? Why do you need to abort? And please, don't tell me it's more prudent. If one cares for prudence, one should care in remembering that when two people have sex, the highest form of an organism will not resemble a fly or a squirrel, but a human being.
Instead of working towards abortion mills... why can't money be spent in giving women free prenatal care and, if they don't want a baby, a good means of giving it up for a good foster home?
In fact, people are verily unaware of the harmful side effects of abortion. My Russian boss's mother committed one... and she had a mental trauma. There's also scientific research that shows correlation with the amount of abortions committed and the mental state and other health effect of their mothers.
All in all, I've even heard of atheists that are against abortion. Even if he is within a mother's womb, he still has his own circulatory system and, if not that, his own genetic makeup. It may be the woman's body the fetus depends on, but that doesn't give her a right to kill it anymore I have right to kill someone for being a mere bother to me.
The evidence? [And I'm already falling asleep and can barely write anymore]. Science treats on what is the mechanism. It can't take on a more bigger question. Since everything we know has a cause... and we know that nothing only causes nothing...
The question of Why is there something, instead of nothing?, a question strictly confined to philosophy and religion. What is the primary cause?
The idea that the only things that can be believed or thought of as true have to be proven by science is just scientism. It's more of an exaggeration of the ability of science. I'll leave a video because I can hardly defend myself anymore... want to sleep...
Anything I didn't say or defended poorly in the last couple of paragraphs is there. Sleep....
This helps as well in the thing of abortion:
"You know, this method of atheists of throwing a thousand things that each deserve a thousand lines for a defense is really tiresome"
Ah the usual Christian irony impairment. This is what religious people constantly do. They throw in this cute little statements that usually contain a somewhat hidden logical fallacy. Refuting it would require a couple of paragraphs though. It's a great way to sidetrack a verbal debate and make it appear that you're winning when you haven't in fact said anything substantial.
"Overpopulation? May I ask where is the overpopulation? America is going to go to a depression worse than the great depression because the retired elderly are sucking up all the money of the government when there are almost no more children to replace the wealth sucked up by these retired people."
Really? Watch Fox News? That is a bunch of crap. Those people paid into the SS Trust fund all their lives. The government has borrowed from the trust fund and does not pay it back. Here is the deal, government says you pay in and we will have funds for you when you retire. If you took the same amount of money and had invested it at 3% over your working life, you would have over $800,000 right now. The government took the money and now that is time to pay back they say sorry we don't have any money, but can bail out banks and fight wars. You as a Xtian then want to blame the same people that paid in for the debt? We are told that ad hominems are not to be used but you maybe able to guess what I think of your statement and right now you.
Jim - while the white family may not be having many children the illegal immigrant is popping them out. You and I both know this to be true.
For a population group to maintain you need a birthrate of 2 children per family, without the Hispanic birthrate the US can not maintain child birthrate. Not sure how this is pertinent to my post?
Take the Baby Boomers. They were the product of a generation that REALLY wanted to have kids.
They continuously made wealth for the country and gave it to the government.
The government makes debt according to the wealth they are receiving from a numerous generation.
The next generation comes in, and because they don't produce as much wealth as the younger, now retired, people produced.
Add to that inflation and a whole other hosts of things such as illegal immigrants (though I'm not a proponent of throwing them all out)...
And you get a debt that can't be payed for. You have more people sucking out wealth than what you have producing it.
All in all, overpopulation, as I said above as my biology professor pointed out, isn't a problem. It's also distribution of wealth.
As I said before, 40% or so of America's wealth is concentrated on 1% of society.
I will accept I'm not an economy connoisseur, and I could use a good refresher course on the economy, but the idea makes sense to me at least.
I am open to other ideas of what could fix the economy. But I'm verily sure that overpopulation isn't a problem.
At least, not now, if ever...