***[Moderator Note] Pahu is no longer a member of Think Atheist.  If you would like to add your thoughts to this thread, that is your prerogative; however, the original poster is not able to respond.[/Moderator Note]***

When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing. We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law, we can use the following logic:

 

1. The universe exists.

2. The universe had a beginning.

3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.

4. Since there was no universe, there was nothing.

5. Since the universe does exist, it came from nothing.

6. Nothing comes from nothing by any natural cause.

7. Therefore the cause of the universe is supernatural.

8. Life exists.

9. Life always comes from pre-existing life of the same kind (the Law of Biogenesis).

10. Life cannot come from nonliving matter by any natural cause.

11. Since life does exist, the cause of life is supernatural.

 

Many people with a naturalistic worldview assume everything can be explained by natural causes. From the beginning, they reject the possibility of a supernatural cause. Because of this they are left with no scientifically valid answers to the question of how the universe could come from nothing, which is impossible by any natural cause of which we are aware. Many answers have been proposed that go beyond the realm of known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation and therefore enter the realm of fiction.

 

The same logic applies to life. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that life only comes from pre-existing life of the same kind.

 

[color=blue][i]“Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the Law of Biogenesis. Evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes”[/color][/i] [[url=http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/]From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown[/url]]

 

Life never comes from non-living matter by any natural cause of which we are aware.

 

Now that we have seen proof that God exists, using logic based on known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we need to see if He has revealed Himself to us. In the Holy Bible there are hundreds of prophecies given by God who is speaking in the first person. In both Bible and secular history we find that those prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. No other writing on earth comes close to doing this! Only God can accurately reveal the future, ergo, He is the author of the Holy Bible. Within the pages of the Holy Bible He reveals His nature, our nature, His relationship to us, our need for salvation and His plan of salvation for us.

 

The reason the universe and life cannot come from nothing by any natural cause, but can come from a supernatural cause is because God is the self-existent creator of everything and everyone. He is not subject to His creation. He created it and sustains it. It is a mistake to judge God by human standards and human perspectives. God reveals that He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

 

If you are interested in more detailed proof, read, [i]“Evidence that Demands a Verdict”[/i] by Josh McDowell.

 

[[url=http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000005147#] From “Reincarnation in the Bible?” [/url]]

 

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On large scales this would resemble in classical Newtonian terms what Mark Whittle in his wonderful Cosmology lectures called "falling outward."

Then you are saying there cannot be nothing , but must be something?  Ok then , your logic works for me.  So the universe has always been here?  No need for a God?  

 

Did you ever think if you replaced the word 'universe' with 'God' in your original logical arguments , you might get a hint of what we are talking about?  

The first two assumptions I will grant.

1. The universe exists.

It's possible there is no universe and our conscious existence is a lie but I hate that line of thinking cuz it's boring & redundant. If assumption one is wrong, this entire argument is moot. So I'll grant that leap of faith. I grant that assumption w/o sufficient evidence outside what we know about our own existence. We'll pretend that's a given. The universe exists. If it doesn't, this is all academic anyway.

2. The universe had a beginning.

Now, we kinda have proof for number two. There is the echo of The Big Bang at the furthest reaches of our known universe. Scientists have detected it. Our known perception of the universe has an outer layer. We can observe it and examine it from this great distance. Our universe as we know it is not infinite. It's finite. This does allow us one further leap of faith: the known universe had a beginning.

This is big really. Cuz until recently we really couldn't stretch this far in our knowledge of the universe. We've jumped to a lot of conclusions as a species that have later proven to be false. We're getting better at this but we still have a long way to go.

3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.

We don't know this. Someday we might figure out a way to get information about what is outside the known universe but right now that looks about as impossible as breaking the sound barrier once seemed to be, or figuring out speed of light travel appears to be now. Human Flight was once impossible. Going to the moon was once impossible. Maybe someday we'll resolve number three too. However, not today. Not yet.

Perhaps before this universe began there was another universe. A different one. Maybe there's something outside our known universe even now. Maybe whatever that something is is still there, maybe it was replaced by something else and we didn't notice cuz we're inside this bubble. Maybe it was there then but it's gone now. We don't know. We have no way of knowing if statement 3 is correct or not. It's too much of a leap of faith from what we know.

This argument is a load of dingoes kidneys. It's an argument from ignorance. Because we are inside the universe, we can't see what is outside the universe, if in fact there is anything. We don't know. Assuming from what we know is always a leap of faith.

Believers leap w/o looking. Doubters look first, and in this case, we can't look. At least not yet.

Currently we simply can't see outside our known universe. That doesn't mean nothing's there. That doesn't mean something's there. That doesn't mean anything. Maybe the laws of nature as we know them don't apply outside the known universe. By definition that'd make anything outside what we know supernatural. However, that doesn't mean YOUR god is definitely THE answer. It'd make all the gods mankind has ever envisioned a few possibilities among a near infinity of possibilities.

Any of the assumptions made past number three are not relevant, cuz you can't get past number three. It's too much of a jump from rational thought to assume before the something we can perceive now there was nothing. That's what the bible insists. It's just a book. It's no more right than the creation stories from other cultures. It's a great myth. It's fun. It's thought provoking. That doesn't make it the final word.

The bible is not the word of god. It only claims to be. It was written by men who wanted to control other men and tell them how to think, feel, behave & treat one another and sometimes that was beneficial to mankind and sometimes that was malevolent. I'm not arguing the ethics here. I'm arguing for knowledge.

Assumptions are not facts. If you can back up assumptions with facts, then what had been an assumption previously may be seen as a fact, but to accept assumptions blindly without evidence takes religion, and humanity simply doesn't need that BS any longer.

We need proof. Prove your god. Or shut the f*** up.

Reply by ZachsMind yesterday

The first two assumptions I will grant.

1. The universe exists.

2. The universe had a beginning.

3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.

We don't know this. 

 

Pahu: You begin by agreeing the universe had a beginning and then balk at the idea that before it existed there was nothing. Isn't that a logical conclusion? How could the universe exist before it existed?

 

ZachsMind: Perhaps before this universe began there was another universe. A different one. Maybe there's something outside our known universe even now. Maybe whatever that something is is still there, maybe it was replaced by something else and we didn't notice cuz we're inside this bubble. Maybe it was there then but it's gone now. We don't know. We have no way of knowing if statement 3 is correct or not. It's too much of a leap of faith from what we know.

 

Pahu: You attempt to explain your contradiction with a series of speculations of perhapses and maybes. As I pointed out, my statements are based on known observation, experience and experimentation. Not speculation or "faith." Isn't your response faith that maybe some day we will finally discover natural causes for the existence of the universe? Do you resist conclusions based on facts because they disprove what you want to believe?

Faith is a belief without reason to believe. Maybe perhaps and speculation are anti faith. You formulated that he isnt operating on faith by saying hes using those things. Your contradicting yourself just as you do in most of your arguments.

 

You keep claiming evidence, observation, and experimentation(a word your obviously unfamiliar with) of god but i have yet to see a single piece of evidence mentioned from you. Your bible of fairytales is no more evidence then the myths of ancient rome or greece. Got any actual evidence?

"the Law of Causality" actually breaks down once you go into quantum physics... Meaning it doesn't exist. There further we "theoretically" travel back in time to the big bang the weirder things get. The laws of physics that we all know, and see to be common everywhere, actually break down when one gets close to "the big bang". So in all reality, there doesn't have to be a time of "nothing". It could have always been here, and the only reason we feel "time", is because ourselves recognize that we will die. Cats and Dogs don't understand time as humans do, and sadly, they have it right. Again back to quantum physics, things can seem to come from nothing, matter, after all, is only "trapped packets of energy", light is a form of energy. Weird to think about, right? Another example. Vacuum energy is an attraction between two completely uncharged plates, placed next to each other in a vacuum. With no forces pushing on the plates at all, they will move towards each other. Theres no understanding of why yet, but we shall soon know. I think existence is a little bigger than vacuum energy, so it'll take longer to find out how it works. So I am not convinced at all that existence was made "supernaturally" and your argument has fallen apart. But I guess I'll go a little farther. Live does not always come from "pre-existing life of the same kind". In fact, it never does. Every time a organism replicates, it has slight changes. Over time the changes that where beneficiary will aid that organism while trying to survive, and/or trying to replicate itself again. Over time again, the changes that where bad (maybe born without arms) will give a disadvantage for survival and/or replication. Over greater amounts of time, all of the advantages add up. Both would be the same species, so they would have the same niche. Since only one can live in the same area, the advantaged would eventually kill of the disadvantages. Leading to us as we are now. Ironically, this is how cancer works as well.

Finally, life can come from nothing. A group of scientists once took carbon, water, electricity, and various other substances that we know existed before use, and they created nucleic acids. Once naturally occurring enzymes where added, they formed together. After a lot of getting banged around in the ocean, and gentle mutations, they can become bacteria. Scientists have also made their own synthetic DNA and created an entirely new bacteria that never existed naturally. You must remember though, from bacteria to fish, takes a LOOONNNNNGGGGGGGG time. Even if scientists could do it in a quarter of the time that nature did, it would still take over a billion years.

As more research is being done on our brains, and how memory works, the more memory and thought are becoming similar. If this trait continues than your thoughts are just your mind organizing its memories to better live the current situation. If thought isn't freewill, than there cannot be an "eternal soul". Which would disprove God with science. Just give us a few more decades =]].

Thank you for your attempt, sometimes i wish it was that easy.
if you cant believe that existence has always been, how can you believe that God has?

Reply by David Pietrzak yesterday

if you cant believe that existence has always been, how can you believe that God has?

 

Pahu: The universe cannot be infinitely old or all useable energy would have been lost already (entropy).  This has not occurred.  Therefore, the universe is not infinitely old. Therefore, the universe had a beginning and since the universe is everything that exists, could it exist before it existed?  Something cannot bring itself into existence.  Therefore, something brought it into existence. What brought the universe into existence?  It would have to be greater than the universe and be a sufficient cause to it.

 

All things that came into existence were caused to exist.  You cannot have an infinite regression of causes (otherwise an infinity of time has been crossed which is impossible because an infinity cannot be crossed).  Therefore, logically, there must be a single uncaused cause that has always existed.

You are stepping far out on a limb by asserting that life was created with electricity. This non fact has been circulating for sometime. You must re-assert this as the building blocks for an organism (not life) was created as such. And structurally you can build anything but that does not make it alive.

Reply by David Pietrzak 23 hours ago

"the Law of Causality" actually breaks down once you go into quantum physics... Meaning it doesn't exist.

 

Pahu: The microworld is indeterministic, but in no way does it follow that quantum events are not determined absolutely by preceding causes. The link between cause and effect is in no way weakened and cannot be so weakened by science, at least without destroying the very possibility of science. And so there is no subtle way at all to circumvent the origin of the universe problem.

 

For more, go here:

http://fmmh.ycdsb.ca/teachers/F00027452/F00027453/creationfromnothi...

 

David Pietrzak: Scientists have also made their own synthetic DNA and created an entirely new bacteria that never existed naturally.

 

Pahu: Proving the need for intelligent design!

Your argument stumbles on the 2nd point - assuming that the universe had a beginning. Buddhism, for one, sees no reason to assume the universe is finite, and sees the universe (all time, not just this big bang cycle) as truly eternal ("kuan gango"  - the Japanese Buddhist term for it usually translated as "time without beginning").  

 

Also - why do you assume, if there is as you say a supernatural cause, that it is the personality of the biblical god? 

Reply by Spartacus of Thrace yesterday

Your argument stumbles on the 2nd point - assuming that the universe had a beginning. Buddhism, for one, sees no reason to assume the universe is finite, and sees the universe (all time, not just this big bang cycle) as truly eternal ("kuan gango"  - the Japanese Buddhist term for it usually translated as "time without beginning").

 

Pahu: I presented conclusions based on facts of science and my argument stumble over Buddhism? 

 

Spartacus of Thrace: Also - why do you assume, if there is as you say a supernatural cause, that it is the personality of the biblical god?

 

Pahu: I explained that in the post to which you are responding: 

 

Now that we have seen proof that God exists, using logic based on known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we need to see if He has revealed Himself to us. In the Holy Bible there are hundreds of prophecies given by God who is speaking in the first person. In both Bible and secular history we find that those prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. No other writing on earth comes close to doing this! Only God can accurately reveal the future, ergo, He is the author of the Holy Bible. Within the pages of the Holy Bible He reveals His nature, our nature, His relationship to us, our need for salvation and His plan of salvation for us.

 

The reason the universe and life cannot come from nothing by any natural cause, but can come from a supernatural cause is because God is the self-existent creator of everything and everyone. He is not subject to His creation. He created it and sustains it. It is a mistake to judge God by human standards and human perspectives. God reveals that He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

 

If you are interested in more detailed proof, read, “Evidence that Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell.

 

 

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