***[Moderator Note] Pahu is no longer a member of Think Atheist.  If you would like to add your thoughts to this thread, that is your prerogative; however, the original poster is not able to respond.[/Moderator Note]***

When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing. We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law, we can use the following logic:


1. The universe exists.

2. The universe had a beginning.

3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.

4. Since there was no universe, there was nothing.

5. Since the universe does exist, it came from nothing.

6. Nothing comes from nothing by any natural cause.

7. Therefore the cause of the universe is supernatural.

8. Life exists.

9. Life always comes from pre-existing life of the same kind (the Law of Biogenesis).

10. Life cannot come from nonliving matter by any natural cause.

11. Since life does exist, the cause of life is supernatural.


Many people with a naturalistic worldview assume everything can be explained by natural causes. From the beginning, they reject the possibility of a supernatural cause. Because of this they are left with no scientifically valid answers to the question of how the universe could come from nothing, which is impossible by any natural cause of which we are aware. Many answers have been proposed that go beyond the realm of known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation and therefore enter the realm of fiction.


The same logic applies to life. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that life only comes from pre-existing life of the same kind.


[color=blue][i]“Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the Law of Biogenesis. Evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes”[/color][/i] [[url=http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/]From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown[/url]]


Life never comes from non-living matter by any natural cause of which we are aware.


Now that we have seen proof that God exists, using logic based on known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we need to see if He has revealed Himself to us. In the Holy Bible there are hundreds of prophecies given by God who is speaking in the first person. In both Bible and secular history we find that those prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. No other writing on earth comes close to doing this! Only God can accurately reveal the future, ergo, He is the author of the Holy Bible. Within the pages of the Holy Bible He reveals His nature, our nature, His relationship to us, our need for salvation and His plan of salvation for us.


The reason the universe and life cannot come from nothing by any natural cause, but can come from a supernatural cause is because God is the self-existent creator of everything and everyone. He is not subject to His creation. He created it and sustains it. It is a mistake to judge God by human standards and human perspectives. God reveals that He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.


If you are interested in more detailed proof, read, [i]“Evidence that Demands a Verdict”[/i] by Josh McDowell.


[[url=http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000005147#] From “Reincarnation in the Bible?” [/url]]


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This is interesting, I've never thought of it that way. Still, I have questions. Why do some "hold that 'all these things,' in verse 33 and 34, refer only to what was said of the fall of Jerusalem, ending with verse 28?" In verse 34, he says "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened," not making any distinction between the events described before and after verse 28.

If the passage refers to the fall of Jerusalem, which I can see some of the events fitting, why does he say that the son of man will come, the sun will be darkened, the moon won't shine, heavenly bodies will be shaken, and stars will fall from the sky? I'm not aware of any of these events happening.

If "this generation" refers to the Jewish race, then we will just have to wait and see.


Where can I find the whole book or article that this is from?


Pahu: I found that commentary specifically here:



B. W. Johnson's Bible Commentary is one of many commentators on the whole Bible. Here is the complete list:


Paku, stop repeating the original message when you reply! It's plain stupid to do that - it does not emphasise your points and it is a waste of space.

Pahu: Most Bible scholars say Jesus was not referring to the generation of His time, but the generation that witnessed all the events He predicted.


Nuh Uh... Mark 9:1 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.

Reply by Moral Atheist 9 hours agoPahu: Most Bible scholars say Jesus was not referring to the generation of His time, but the generation that witnessed all the events He predicted.


Nuh Uh... Mark 9:1 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.


Pahu: Some scholars believe He fulfilled that prophecy eight days later at His transfiguration (vs. 2).


However, some older scholars had a different explanation. B. W. Johnson said: 

Till they have been seen the kingdom of God come with power. Compare Matt. 16:28 and Luke 9:27. Matthew says, "Till they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom;" Luke, "Till they have seen the kingdom of God." A comparison shows that the reference is to "the coming of the kingdom in power" on the day of Pentecost. Of the twelve, one at a time was dead; the others had not tasted of death.


McGarvey and Pendleton agree:

9:1  And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand [by], who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power1
There are some here of them that stand [by], who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power. The mention of his final coming suggested one nearer at hand which was to be accomplished during the life of most of those present, since none but Jesus himself and Judas were to die previous to that time. The kingdom was to come and likewise the King. The former coming was literal, the latter spiritual. Those who refer this expression to the transfiguration certainly err, for no visible kingdom was established at that time. The expression refers to the kingdom which was organized and set in motion on the Pentecost which followed the resurrection of Jesus. It was set up with power, because three thousand souls were converted the first day, Acts 2:41, and many other gospel triumphs speedily followed.


And John Wesley:

Verse 1.   Till they see the kingdom of God coming with power - So it began to do at the day of pentecost, when three thousand were converted to God at once.


Here is a more up to date commentary that agrees with the older ones:


I see how you read the verse.


I read it differently: The generation that sees all of the above shall not pass away before all is fulfilled. 


This harmonizes very well with the Revelation. Many dire prophecies must be fulfilled before the second coming:

  • Reconstruction of the Jewish Temple
  • The cities of the Latin Rite and Orthodox, Rome and Constantinople (Istanbul) must be assimilated into the EU, the new Christian Roman Empire. This Empire must blow into the Revised Imperial Roman Empire with it's god emperor. 
  • This Emperor most stand in the Jewish Temple of God, showing that he is God.
  • You will not be able to buy or sell unless you have the mark of the Emperor or the number of his Name on your forehead are on the palm of your hand.
  • As many that will not receive this mark shall be put to death.
  • Russia must be assimilated into the EU prior to life  being blown into the Imperial Roman Empire
  • Israel must once again be a vassal of Imperial Rome.

2.) Old testament "prophesies" have all failed or have been shown by many independent sources to have been added after the fact. You might want to look into the failed prophecies. They far outnumber even the subjective prophecies you claim.


I consider myself strong on prophecies having spent 30 years verifying there authenticity and accuracy. You have made a very substantial claim. What are your sources?



Bible Prophecies 1

Bible Prophecies 2

Bible Prophecies 3

Bible Prophecies 4

Bible Prophecies 5


Pahu, I was answering Alex.
I read through a few of them. All of them are ridiculous. For example, ALL prophecies of Abram cannot be considered prophecies. Archaeological evidence shows us that the 1st books of the Old Testament were written in Israel during the time when King David was ruler. Therefore written after the fact and cannot be considered fortune telling.

Not to mention that there are literally a dozen other desert gods who were born on the winter solstice to a virgin, grew up to become some kind of teacher, died and were resurrected or turned into a god.


Christianity is plagiarized from start to finish. There are few original thoughts on it. The OT parts are stolen from much earlier cultures, and a lot of the incidental theology and rituals (like Easter and Christmas) were borrowed from current ones to make conversion easier.

I like how the whole premise is based on getting into heaven. Which never shows up in the bible until somewhere around the middle of it. Apparently worshiping God just because was no longer enough. So someone threw in heaven to sweeten the deal.
Don't forget hell!

At least the OT god - despite his murderous psychopathy - was kind enough to just kill people and let them stay dead. The concept of eternal torture for finite transgressions didn't appear until gentle loving Jesus.


Never mind that the whole particulars of hell were worked out in the middle ages. Over a thousand years later


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