***[Moderator Note] Pahu is no longer a member of Think Atheist. If you would like to add your thoughts to this thread, that is your prerogative; however, the original poster is not able to respond.[/Moderator Note]***
When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing. We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law, we can use the following logic:
1. The universe exists.
2. The universe had a beginning.
3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.
4. Since there was no universe, there was nothing.
5. Since the universe does exist, it came from nothing.
6. Nothing comes from nothing by any natural cause.
7. Therefore the cause of the universe is supernatural.
8. Life exists.
9. Life always comes from pre-existing life of the same kind (the Law of Biogenesis).
10. Life cannot come from nonliving matter by any natural cause.
11. Since life does exist, the cause of life is supernatural.
Many people with a naturalistic worldview assume everything can be explained by natural causes. From the beginning, they reject the possibility of a supernatural cause. Because of this they are left with no scientifically valid answers to the question of how the universe could come from nothing, which is impossible by any natural cause of which we are aware. Many answers have been proposed that go beyond the realm of known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation and therefore enter the realm of fiction.
The same logic applies to life. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that life only comes from pre-existing life of the same kind.
[color=blue][i]“Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the Law of Biogenesis. Evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes”[/color][/i] [[url=http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/]From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown[/url]]
Life never comes from non-living matter by any natural cause of which we are aware.
Now that we have seen proof that God exists, using logic based on known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we need to see if He has revealed Himself to us. In the Holy Bible there are hundreds of prophecies given by God who is speaking in the first person. In both Bible and secular history we find that those prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. No other writing on earth comes close to doing this! Only God can accurately reveal the future, ergo, He is the author of the Holy Bible. Within the pages of the Holy Bible He reveals His nature, our nature, His relationship to us, our need for salvation and His plan of salvation for us.
The reason the universe and life cannot come from nothing by any natural cause, but can come from a supernatural cause is because God is the self-existent creator of everything and everyone. He is not subject to His creation. He created it and sustains it. It is a mistake to judge God by human standards and human perspectives. God reveals that He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
If you are interested in more detailed proof, read, [i]“Evidence that Demands a Verdict”[/i] by Josh McDowell.
[[url=http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000005147#] From “Reincarnation in the Bible?” [/url]]
Replies are closed for this discussion.
I read your points 1 through 4
with my mouth agape, I wanted more.
After reading about your supernatural claims,
I really thought you were just playing games.
But by the time I had read #7,
it made my stomach turn to see there were 11.
The logic of your list is just plain lame,
typical assertions & unsupported claims.
And they stress that if we don't believe,
For eternity we burn , to never be relieved.
McDowell's book is crap. I read through some of it and it was horrible. Amazon.com has some opinions from those who tortured themselves by reading through much more of it:
McDowell's book can be highly misleading to an unwary reader. He is a "compiler": He scans the literature and picks out quotes which support or seem to support the case he is trying to make, ignoring all contrary material.
It may help Christians understand what Christianity says that the bible says, or help believers reaffirm their beliefs, but its not much use for making convincing arguments to outsiders.
This book changed my life. I lost my faith.
Needless to say, this book turned me even farther away from considering Christianity as a religion.
This book is to evidence what a loud belch at a formal dinner table is to prayer.
This book is quite a joke in learned circles. It's shallow arguments based on nonexistent or little supported facts are clearly designed for those who want "good" reasons to believe but who aren't looking for crticism [sic].
I suspected that it would offer actual evidence. At the very least, I expected some kind of argument. McDowell does neither - he just quotes a whole bunch of people that have come to the same conclusion as he has, and none of them offer evidence either.
I am so glad or should I say I am sorry you believe this pseudo theory! No wait belief in blind faith! Nothing like using semantics and twisting philosophy to fit your belief in the supernatural. I really don't want to get involved in this cyclical or revolving door philosophy of God or No God, as you probably already know that you can argue your side and the opposite side has validity as well. Just live your life expecting eternal bliss in a heaven or hell, and I will live mine happy and content without a God while I exist on this planet and that is a life of high morals, values and doing my part to make it a better place by not spreading some unrealistic notion of humans in heaven, but animals? Where do they fit into your equation? They don't, even though they are sentient beings but they don't have a "soul" like anyone can prove that anyway! So why don't they have the same rights as humans? Children are not given the same rights either but some animals at similar age are smarter, in intelligence or if you want to base it on brain mass? Well humans can lose that battle also, how about our senses, well we could lose that battle to what about echolocation? Well if animals don't have a so called "soul" then they should have more rights on earth than humans because of the so called religious "afterlife" humans will live for eternity and since animals can't they should deserve more rights than humans while here on earth! I wish I had the time to argue the language and semantics bringing the Socratic method into this but that is always where this type of BS ends up!
Have a wonderful time trying to make people believe the way you do! If God is all knowing, I would consider him utterly a complete idiot, the ten commandments proves that alone, because an all knowing God wouldn't make such ambiguous rules to live by, and a version of a so called god just by the 1st commandment is joke, first of all thou shall not take an other "gods" before me? seriously he wrote this? interesting? the word of god thinking there are "plural" gods that exist, not only that but if he is so all knowing and all powerful why is he so jealous of all of us humans worshiping someone other than his pathetic ass? Give me a break this is a point in futility! Believe what you want but what is really pathetic is that you push this belief on innocent children who are easily brainwashed by this constant BS, it ridiculous enough that religion exists but now you want to teach it as science too! I don't judge God because there NO GOD, I am my own God! but guess what I don't judge anyone, unless they wan to pass judgment upon how I choose to live my life!
Good luck with your eternal bliss!
Only the Christian God says to dead rise!.
He is the resurrection and the life. And they that believe on him shall never die.
The Story of Job has repeated itself among the elders of Judaism for thousands of years. They have proven God by recieving his promises and blessings in reward for a godly life. And their eyes have witnessed the destruction of the ungodly. Read the Psalms of David. Taste and see that the Lord is good, there is want to them that serve him. "Prove me now herewith says the Lord"
Do you want a long life and Good health and hedge about you to protect you from disaster.
The ancient didn't need scientific experiments, they simply put the principles into action and saw for themselves if it indeed benefited their lives. This is the only thing that the invisible God is asking you to do. Simply trust him and see if your life and health will benefit.
First of all I do respect your sincerity as a child and your diligence to put in practice those things taught to you by your teachers. But there is a salient issue that is an impediment is to progress. More likely than not you where practicing some derivative of the the Nicene Creed institute by Emperor Constantine along with observation Christ birth during the Winter Solstice and the belief in the doctrine of the Trinity.
Emperor Constantine, despite instituting all of this falsehood masquerading as Christianity, remained a devote pagan until his death bed.
The first succinct point is that the true faith must be practiced.
Secondly, hypocrisy abounds in all the institutions that are derived from Catholicism, including protestantism. You don't have to look very far: The inhuman inquisitions, the imposition of orthodoxy by the sword, Papal indulgence, antiPope, the assimilation of paganism and pagan holidays ( Christmas, Easter, Halloween), the assimilation of pomp and ceremony borrowed from the Babylonian Mysteries tradition, including the mitre hat symbol of the god Dagon. Not to forget the Crucifix and cruciforms that predate Christianity and by no means shown to be what he died on. The new testament in the original tongues is lacking crosses.
It would have been better for you to have practiced Judaism to incur any blessing rather than the Christian counterfeit perpetrated by the powers of darkness.
That is the problem, there is no Christianity immediately available to us.
My plight is the same as yours. That not to say that his remnant has been completely martyred by the counterfeit that imposed it's orthodoxy by the sword in Europe and Asia, but probably close.
With no real due respect (as this drivel commands none), this is nonsense after number one.
Try harder. And perhaps do some reading?
There is absolutely no reason to tackle such rubbish in detail - but the god of the gaps theory (which this is a form of) has been so thoroughly debunked a million times, that it's odd it just gets represented all the time. It makes one wonder if theists don' read, listen or learn or something?
point 3 is an assumption. before this universe there was no this universe. doesn't mean there was no other one.
point 4. You ned to explain what "nothing" means in a scientific sense.
Point 5. Relies on the assumption of point 3.
Point 6. another assumption. the total mass/energy state of the universe is zero. the universe still is nothing in that sense
Point 7. Define supernatural. if you are asserting that a force exists outside of nature that effects nature then the term is oxymoronic.
Point 9. Another assumption. life can be created from non-living material as Craig Venter will demonstrate. Furthermore "life" is a poorly defined concept which I very much doubt you have the qualification to decide where it starts. organic chemicals exist throughout the universe. amino acids spontaneosly appear in the right chemical environment. the point at which molecules self-replicate occurs long before anything you would define as "life" appears. This law of biogenesis you refer to is not a scientific law.
Point 10. repeating yourself but not providing proof of your assertion
Point 11. once again, invoking supernaturalism without explaining it. what did your god "do" to the chemicals on earth that can not happen spontaneously?
As with all other religoons you have rehashed some very tired and unscientific viewpoints then jumped to the conclusion that your bible is in any way relevent to the argument.
Can you answer the following questions?
1. Is god alive? please frame your response in relation to "biogenesis" insisting that life can only exist if it came from life
2. Why one god? Surely if we were to attribute creation to a supernatural consciousness the evidence suggests there would have to be many gods.
3. the god of your bible is male. discuss why this would be
4. your comment that the life emerging spontaneously has never been observed; does lack of observation equal proof?
5. Considering the vast number of edits that have occured in the bible. which one is true?
6. How many animals were on the ark?
7. How did Noah manage to get all these animals who were presumibly in walking distance of his house, to collonise different continents and islands in the same manner as if they'd evolved on a tectonically active planet?
8. which prophecies have come true?
9. why the need for salvation? if people need to be saved, what from? can't god save everyone?
10. If you see all these tired points as "proof" does that mean we can dispense with "faith"?
#9 is flat out wrong (see research on abiogenesis).
#3 assumes facts not in evidence.
#2 The Universe as we know it had a beginning. See what happens if we leave out important words?
#7 Supernatural is a cop out. If you say unknown cause then fine I can go along with that. If you say supernatural or unknowable then you have jumped the track and your logic is faulty.
#11. To show you how stupid this line of logic is I will use an analogy:
In the early days of humanity we didn't know how people got sick. Therefore it must have had a supernatural cause.
Early humans didn't understand Earthquakes. Therefore they must have had a supernatural cause.
Early humans didn't know what caused the weather. Therefore it must have a supernatural cause.
Do you see how you failed yet?