I am starting a new thread, because I do not want to be blamed as an alleged monster making fun of cripples and this accusation was getting out of the scope of the discussion about soulmates.  

I claim:  Every religious and other irrational belief and every behavior based upon such beliefs are so preposterous and ludicrous, that this justifies ridicule and making fun of it.   This is independent of who is afflicted with the irrationality and of the reasons to behave irrationally.   

This ridicule is principally justified by the irrationality.   Hurting the feelings of the misguided believers is not justified, so the ridiculing has to be restricted to be done in a way, that they do not know it.

I told about having been to Lourdes and discreetly having a good laughter about the weird spectacle of the irrational religious behaviors.    This does not imply laughing about the unfortunate and tragic situation of cripples and sick people.    They have my compassion and my sympathy.    

The evaluation of a person's situation and the evaluation of a person's method of coping with a situation are independent.   Compassion with a person's unfortunate situation does not require automatic respect for weird coping, no matter if the coping is the belief in a miracle at Lourdes or in homeopathy or any other woo-woo.   

The availability or lack of having a choice is the decisive difference:   Becoming sick and crippled is not a choice.   Making a fool of oneself by going to Lourdes is a choice.   It is this choice, that justifies the laughter.   

What about the Darwin award?   Are the people, who have invented it also monsters?   Does their laughing at weird ways of getting killed really preclude their having compassion with the dead persons and those grieving?   

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From what I could see, you made yourself quite clear - you have no compassion for those with illnesses or physical infirmities, who, out of desperation, are deluded by their religion into believing that the waters of the fountain at Lourdes will cure them. Instead of pitying them, as most rational Humanists would do, you hold them in contempt and mock them behind their backs. Did I omit anything?

She wasn't specifically talking about the naive people at lourdes. From what I can gather, she was explaining that as long as nobody is harmed, she may think and say whatever she wants about any human being. Also, this is one of the big points

Nobody has any rational reason and even less moral obligation to approach a complete stranger to inform him of the own unfavorable cognitive reaction to his public behavior (unless the interference serves to protect a third party).

The rational reason to approach a stranger would be the intention of mutually beneficial interactions, not to offend him

I don't see how you came to your conclusions from her post.

RE: "She wasn't specifically talking about the naive people at lourdes."

I don't know how much more specific she could have been --

Maruli: "...to visit a religious spectacle like Lourdes with a fellow atheist and to share the hilarious laughter is joy."


I meant her blog post, not her other posts in general. I had not read that thread.

She and I were continuing the conversation we began on the other thread, you just happened to come in, in the middle, so your confusion is understandable.

Indeed, religion should be ridiculed mercilessly as long as it continues to foster ignorance, hatred, bigotry, racism, imperialism, chauvinism, misogyny, war, and anti-science stupidity.  I do so at every opportunity.  And it's easy to do; just read the Bible aloud.  If that doesn't induce uproarious laughter, you don't have a sense of humor.  Which pretty much describes your typical Christian fundamentalist.  

People need to toughen up. So long as their is no hate or malice then no one should be protected from ridicule. I have a relative who is cripple from an accident while he was drinking and I make fun of him all the time. He knows I love him and I don't do it to be mean and he respects me for treating him like everyone else. He understands that he was being a dumbass and should not have been driving while intoxicated and in my opinion there is nothing wrong with stating the obvious truth in a way to make myself laugh.

It's one thing to make fun like that with someone when it's an inside joke, but don't tell me that you'd make a similar joke with someone you don't know as well who you might meet in a supermarket under the "people need to toughen up" theory.

How about a Vet in a wheelchair, with both legs blown off by an IED - maybe he was a dumbass for enlisting.

Drinking and driving? Not a good thing. But I'll bet your relative feels a little stab in the heart every time you make fun of him, he's just determined not to give you the satisfaction of showing it.

The only reason anyone makes fun of one less fortunate, is to feel superior to them, in which case, I would ask, why the need? Mocking someone harms you as much as it does them, as (in my opinion) everytime you do, you lose a little bit of your Humanity.

How about a Vet in a wheelchair, with both legs blown off by an IED - maybe he was a dumbass for enlisting.

He certainly was.

But I have to agree that an inside joke can't be compared to joking about anybody you might just meet on the street. It's similar to calling someone a nigger. Do it to your buddies, no problem. Do it to some guy you see in the supermarket, might get you in trouble.

My problem lies with the hypocrisy. We, on this website and in general, love to mock the theists. We talk all kinds of shit about them, and I'm sure lots of it counts as behind the back. I just don't get why if a guy is in a wheelchair (just an example) he gets a free no-more-mock ticket. Yes, some people may act tough, and then secretly cry themselves to sleep, but not everybody is like that. Personally, I would much rather be treated like everybody else than be given special treatment. By that I don't mean things like someone holding the door for me if I had a disability. That is common courtesy. But don't threat me like a little poor pitiful blind dog in his last days. I can of course only speak for myself, because I know that theists LOVE special treatment. But I'm not going to grant it to them. If I mock a person, it's only for his ideas, not for his physical being. You don't mock a cripple because he's a cripple, you mock him because he believes a handful of dirty water and magic words is going to cure something that real medicine can't. There are seriously ill atheists too, you don't see them begging ghosts and spirits for magic.

If I may I'd also like to explain my own stance, I'm not the kind of person to stand around and chuckle at other people for being this kind of stupid. It's not the kind of stupid that is humorous and gives you schadenfreude, like someone slipping and falling on his ass. It's the kind of stupid that makes me want to cry because whatever little crumble of naive faith in humanity is left in me is being chiseled away. I give it 2 or 3 seconds of thought and move on. While what you say is certainly true, it's not the mocking of such people that makes you lose your humanity. Simply seeing and knowing that something like this exists is enough for some. At least for me it is.

What I think is not that someone should just walk up to them and start making fun of them and laugh, but that no one should be responsible to hold back, merely because someone has a disability. Being sick is not an excuse for stupidity and naiveté. You have no right to play the cripple-card and be offended if someone is making fun of your beliefs.

Like I said I haven't read all of maruli's posts, only her blog post. If standing in a corner and amusing herself about religious ignorance is her cup of coffee, why not. It's not my kinda thing, but I'm not going to suggest she is horrible for doing it.

This post is much longer than I expected, sorry for that.

..wow. This thread makes me sad.. I'm at a loss for words, to be honest.. Hmm..Anyone who feels they have some sort of intellectual authority, upon which they justify ridicule of sick, lost, broken people is a goddamned morally bankrupt narcissist. There's simply NO place for such childish bullshit.There is a time and a place to demystify God.. but making fun of the one thing that offers a semblance of comfort or peace or absolution for another human being at the end of their proverbial rope.. does NOT the ideal time or place make. The compulsory need to kick someone whilst they're down reflects an ignorance greater than any desperate believers who flock to Lourdes.

Apparently, on this thread Melissa, you are not free to interpret comments for yourself - it's Kris Feenstra's self-appointed job to tell you that what you read really didn't mean what you thought it meant.

We're lucky to have him, otherwise, we might be tempted to use our own judgment and comment accordingly, then where would we be?


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